And There You Have It. We All Are Paying For The "morning After&#3

[JimR-OCDS]

kamiller42

[quote]
But you do believe it [b]should[/b] be illegal.
[/quote]

I don't believe early pre-viable stage abortions can be made illegal.

Because

[quote]
Your disagreement is how it can be [b]made[/b] illegal, i.e. implemented.
[/quote]

There is no realistic way to enforce it.

[quote]
For you and me, those who believe abortion is murder, $100 is laughable. We believe murder deserves a stiffer penalty. People who truly believe abortion is murder would never let such a moral crime stand legally. So what do you think the penalties should be?
[/quote]

I don't believe a previable abortion, can be legally defined as murder.

For one, those who commit the act don't have an understanding that they are killing a person. As I've stated before, Jews, Muslims and others, do not believe that a pre-viable abortion is killing a person.
So how are you going to put a law in place punishing a Jewish doctor who performs an abortion at 12 weeks, for murder?

[quote]
Are you sure about that? You should probably get more familiar with the history of slavery in America and around the world before making such statements.
[/quote]

Yes, I'm sure about it. The average southerner didn't own slaves and most opposed secession. When the war began most fought for states rights, but it soon turned when the Davis conscript men into the military. The average Joe had to serve, leaving his own family and farm, while wealthy plantation owners where exempted from serving. The resentment became such that many southerners took up arms against the confederate army and aided the union. A good book on the subject is, "The State of Jones," by Sally Jones and John Staufer.


[quote]
Did America have a second civil war and I missed it?
[/quote]

The point I'm getting at is that there are those who in fact think taking up arms against abortionist is justified.

The recent shooting of George Tiller, the abortionist has opened up debates across the net. There are many, even in Catholic web forums who seem to justify the killer's position.

Jim

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 02:59 PM' timestamp='1265662775' post='2053566']

I don't believe a previable abortion, can be legally defined as murder.

Jim
[/quote]
No, legally it can't, because legally it's legal.

Morally, it's murder. Morally, it should be illegal. You've once again taken an indefensible position. We should have kept track from your first post on PM, because you'd probably be in the double digits by now.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 February 2010 - 03:59 PM' timestamp='1265662775' post='2053566']
I don't believe early pre-viable stage abortions can be made illegal.[/quote]
Do you think pre-viable abortions should be made illegal? I am not asking if you think a prohibition on abortion is legally possible. I am asking if a prohibition should be enacted. (If it helps, pretend a politician appears and tells you "Don't worry. I have the enforcement issue taken care of. I want your opinion on whether I should pursue a prohibition. Is it right or not?")

[quote]I don't believe a previable abortion, can be legally defined as murder.

For one, those who commit the act don't have an understanding that they are killing a person. As I've stated before, Jews, Muslims and others, do not believe that a pre-viable abortion is killing a person.
So how are you going to put a law in place punishing a Jewish doctor who performs an abortion at 12 weeks, for murder?[/quote]
You are comfortable with a prohibition on abortion of "viable" unborns (See 2nd quote above.) without consideration of the Buddhists who believe it's acceptable at any stage and without stating your ideas for punishment of doctors or women who perform such abortions.

[quote]Yes, I'm sure about it. The average southerner didn't own slaves and most opposed secession. When the war began most fought for states rights, but it soon turned when the Davis conscript men into the military. The average Joe had to serve, leaving his own family and farm, while wealthy plantation owners where exempted from serving. The resentment became such that many southerners took up arms against the confederate army and aided the union. A good book on the subject is, "The State of Jones," by Sally Jones and John Staufer.[/quote]
I am referring to the notion slavery ended around the world without a shot except in the U.S. That is far from the truth.

[quote]The point I'm getting at is that there are those who in fact think taking up arms against abortionist is justified.

The recent shooting of George Tiller, the abortionist has opened up debates across the net. There are many, even in Catholic web forums who seem to justify the killer's position.
[/quote]
That has nothing to do with whether a prohibition on abortion should be enacted. That was my point about the silly Lincoln scenario. You are putting the cart (enforcement and punishment) before the horse (justification and validity of civil law).

[JimR-OCDS]

kamiller

[quote]
Do you think pre-viable abortions should be made illegal? I am not asking if you think a prohibition on abortion is legally possible. I am asking if a prohibition should be enacted. (If it helps, pretend a politician appears and tells you "Don't worry. I have the enforcement issue taken care of. I want your opinion on whether I should pursue a prohibition. Is it right or not?")
[/quote]

You're presenting a hypothetical that does not and never will exist in this nation, that the majority of people desire to have all levels of abortion outlawed. However, if given the chance to vote on a ballot
referendum to outlaw abortion, I would vote for it.

However, as I've been saying all along, the penalty for violating the law is the reason we will never see such a thing. There is no way that people will accept punishing a woman or doctor for an early term abortion, especially for using the morning after pill which this thread started out being about.

Late term abortions, entirely different. The majority of the nation opposes them and thank God, partial birth abortions are illegal on the federal level as well as in many states, unless the life of the mother is at risk.



[quote]
You are comfortable with a prohibition on abortion of "viable" unborns (See 2nd quote above.)


without consideration of the Buddhists who believe it's acceptable at any stage and without stating your ideas for punishment of doctors or women who perform such abortions.
[/quote]

Abortion of a viable fetus is equivalent to murder of born human being and should carry the same penalty.
Most of the nation is appalled at the notion of killing a viable fetus. Enacting such a law isn't a problem as it is for early pre-viable abortions, especially those done out of medical necessity.

[quote]
I am referring to the notion slavery ended around the world without a shot except in the U.S. That is far from the truth.
[/quote]

Name a nation that went to war to end slavery? I'm not familiar of any other than the US civil war.

I'm not talking about tribes trying to defend themselves from being sold into slavery here.

[quote]
That has nothing to do with whether a prohibition on abortion should be enacted. That was my point about the silly Lincoln scenario. You are putting the cart (enforcement and punishment) before the horse (justification and validity of civil law).
[/quote]

I'm not the one who brought up the Lincoln scenario and slavery. That was a question thrown at me.

Hope this helps.

Jim

[JimR-OCDS]

Here is an article on the issue that I think Father Kavenaugh hits the nail on the
head, as to where we are as a society on this subject. His writing skills are far
beyond my capability.

I know many of you will cringe at the source being America Magazine, but do yourself a favor
and read the article.

[quote]

Abortion Absolutists

'The sad reality is that extremists on both sides are alienating citizens from one another.
John F. Kavanaugh DECEMBER 15, 2008

I f there is any hope for change in national abortion politics, it will rest on more honest and open discussion. The sad reality is that extremists on both sides are alienating citizens (as well as people of faith) from one another. The common ground that unites the majority of Americans who want to limit abortions is eroded by people who insist on an absolute position.

The extremist poles on abortion are these: 1) nothing short of criminalizing the termination of any pregnancy from fertilization or conception is acceptable; 2) nothing short of total reproductive choice until birth is acceptable. These extremes have determined the debate in the public square; and as long as this continues, we will never reach consensus to protect unborn human life. They are also polar positions that have never been closely examined by their proponents.



[url="http://www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=11284"]http://www.americama...rticle_id=11284[/url]

[/quote]

Jim

Edited February 9, 2010 by JimR-OCDS

[Nihil Obstat]

Nothing short of ending abortion entirely is acceptable, however nobody in their right mind expects it to happen immediately. This article presents a big dumb straw man.

We can't allow just a little bit of murder. What we can do is accept baby steps working towards our goal of not allowing murder.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='09 February 2010 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1265726361' post='2054063']
You're presenting a hypothetical that does not and never will exist in this nation, that the majority of people desire to have all levels of abortion outlawed. However, if given the chance to vote on a ballot
referendum to outlaw abortion, I would vote for it. [/quote]
Good. You believe it should be outlawed because it's wrong. And it's a justified prohibition not because you had to think of a proper punishment, but it's simply wrong.

[quote]However, as I've been saying all along, the penalty for violating the law is the reason we will never see such a thing. There is no way that people will accept punishing a woman or doctor for an early term abortion, especially for using the morning after pill which this thread started out being about.

Late term abortions, entirely different. The majority of the nation opposes them and thank God, partial birth abortions are illegal on the federal level as well as in many states, unless the life of the mother is at risk.

Abortion of a viable fetus is equivalent to murder of born human being and should carry the same penalty.
Most of the nation is appalled at the notion of killing a viable fetus. Enacting such a law isn't a problem as it is for early pre-viable abortions, especially those done out of medical necessity.
[/quote]
Partial birth abortion is a procedure; not all late term abortions are partial birth abortions. Would you charge a woman and a doctor with homicide if they perform D&E or early labor induction? How is it you can see the horror of late term abortions and willing to levy legal punishments on perpetrators harsher than current law carries out, but not see the same of "pre-viable" abortions? Is it because "most of the nation" sees it or because it's morally reprehensible?

The law enabling early stage development abortions (free and clear) is the same law that permits late term abortions. There are certain restrictions like on procedures, but [b]late term abortions are legal[/b]. The justification for prohibitions on late term abortions does not hinge on the fact "most of the nation is appalled." What happens when most people are not appalled? Then is it morally justified?

[quote]Name a nation that went to war to end slavery? I'm not familiar of any other than the US civil war.

I'm not talking about tribes trying to defend themselves from being sold into slavery here.[/quote]
The most obvious example is WWII. Germany enslaved Jewish people and others into "labor camps" to help run their war machine. That was slavery. The Japanese enslaved civilians and POWs to run their war machine.

Other violent examples from history: God ending enslavement of the Jewish people in Egypt. Cyrus the Great setting the diaspora Jews free. The Servile Wars in Rome. The Paraguayan War in Brazil. The Haitian revolution. The Sudan civil wars.

The war against slavery has been just that, a war. Shots have been fire against slavery in the U.S. and around the world.

If you can reference Father Kavenaugh, may I reference a few Catholic religious too, maybe a few popes, Mother Theresa, and to get more local, Archbishop Chaput?

[Winchester]

So saying no murder is acceptable is an extreme?

[JimR-OCDS]

kamiller42


[quote]
Partial birth abortion is a procedure; not all late term abortions are partial birth abortions.
[/quote]

Yes I know.

[quote]
Would you charge a woman and a doctor with homicide if they perform D&E or early labor induction?
[/quote]

No, not necessarily if done for medical reasons to save the life of the mother. I know of cases where a severely deformed fetus which had no chance of making it through a full term pregnancy, nor surviving outside of the womb had to be delivered through induced labor. The dying fetus would've been a threat to the mother's health. Now Catholic teaching is that they could not do anything that would kill the fetus, regardless. But at this point, I think it was best left up to the medical experts and mother. Neither should be convicted of a crime in such a case.

[quote]
How is it you can see the horror of late term abortions and willing to levy legal punishments on perpetrators harsher than current law carries out, but not see the same of "pre-viable" abortions?
[/quote]

Because with a late term abortion people overall have no doubt about the reality of a baby, unlike previable stages, especially before implantation.

We don't agree with this, but we're left with either forcing our beliefs onto others or trying to educate them. The rhetoric used by the pro-life extremist have driven many away from even listening. Same is true for the extremist of the pro-abortion side.





[quote]
The law enabling early stage development abortions (free and clear) is the same law that permits late term abortions. There are certain restrictions like on procedures, but [b]late term abortions are legal[/b]. The justification for prohibitions on late term abortions does not hinge on the fact "most of the nation is appalled." What happens when most people are not appalled? Then is it morally justified?
[/quote]

When most people are not appalled over late term abortions, then the nation has lost all of its moral compass. However, I don't see our nation becoming so callous that this will happen, at least I pray it doesn't.

[quote]
The most obvious example is WWII. Germany enslaved Jewish people and others into "labor camps" to help run their war machine. That was slavery. The Japanese enslaved civilians and POWs to run their war machine.
[/quote]

It was a little different here. In WWII Germany, the people became fearful of their own government, and fearful of doing anything to get themselves imprisoned. Its easy for us to sit back in our comfortable chairs and say, I would've spoken out against it, but, until you live in the situation, you really don't know how you will react.



[quote]
If you can reference Father Kavenaugh, may I reference a few Catholic religious too, maybe a few popes, Mother Theresa, and to get more local, Archbishop Chaput?
[/quote]


You don't have to. I read the Pope's messages along with Mother Terese and various Bishops. I don't just read those on the liberal side of the spectrum.

BTW, did you actually read Father Kavenaugh's article?

Jim

Edited February 9, 2010 by JimR-OCDS

[Veridicus]

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='09 February 2010 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1265741702' post='2054190']
kamiller42




Yes I know.



No, not necessarily if done for medical reasons to save the life of the mother. I know of cases where a severely deformed fetus which had no chance of making it through a full term pregnancy, nor surviving outside of the womb had to be delivered through induced labor. The dying fetus would've been a threat to the mother's health. Now Catholic teaching is that they could not do anything that would kill the fetus, regardless. But at this point, I think it was best left up to the medical experts and mother. Neither should be convicted of a crime in such a case.



Because with a late term abortion people overall have no doubt about the reality of a baby, unlike previable stages, especially before implantation.

We don't agree with this, but we're left with either forcing our beliefs onto others or trying to educate them. The rhetoric used by the pro-life extremist have driven many away from even listening. Same is true for the extremist of the pro-abortion side.







When most people are not appalled over late term abortions, then the nation has lost all of its moral compass. However, I don't see our nation becoming so callous that this will happen, at least I pray it doesn't.



It was a little different here. In WWII Germany, the people became fearful of their own government, and fearful of doing anything to get themselves imprisoned. Its easy for us to sit back in our comfortable chairs and say, I would've spoken out against it, but, until you live in the situation, you really don't know how you will react.






You don't have to. I read the Pope's messages along with Mother Terese and various Bishops. I don't just read those on the liberal side of the spectrum.

BTW, did you actually read Father Kavenaugh's article?

Jim
[/quote]
You have an uncanny ability to type a lot of words without saying anything. Unless what you're saying flies in the face of Catholic social teaching.
The term "extreme pro-life" is identical to the term "extreme anti-murder. Is this a loaded term? Absolutely. It's also accurate and unavoidable.

[JimR-OCDS]

Nihil Obstat

[quote]
You have an uncanny ability to type a lot of words without saying anything.
[/quote]

And you purposely throw your sophomoric insults without providing anything to the conversation.




[quote]
The term "extreme pro-life" is identical to the term "extreme anti-murder. Is this a loaded term? Absolutely. [/quote]

The terms are political not literal.

Get over yourself.

Jim

Edited February 9, 2010 by JimR-OCDS

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='09 February 2010 - 01:35 PM' timestamp='1265744112' post='2054218']
Nihil Obstat



And you purposely throw your sophomoric insults without providing anything to the conversation.






The terms are political not literal.

Get over yourself.

Jim
[/quote]
What exactly makes something a "literal" term? America Magazine? Maybe if it's used by Gene Robinson or Ghandi?
You're playing with words to justify a position that has been unequivocally condemned by the Church you profess to be a part of. The problem is yours, not mine.

[Veridicus]

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='09 February 2010 - 03:38 PM' timestamp='1265744322' post='2054223']
What exactly makes something a "literal" term? America Magazine? Maybe if it's used by Gene Robinson or Ghandi?
You're playing with words to justify a position that has been unequivocally condemned by the Church you profess to be a part of. The problem is yours, not mine.
[/quote]


No the problem is that any chance of dialog is impossible with the rhetoric of the extreme positions shutting down all conversations on issues.

Its not a matter of rigidly holding to Church teaching and patting yourself on the back for being a good Catholic, but a matter of bringing the Church's teaching to the table in a manor that others will hear.

However, when you have extremist using derogatory insulting labels, and belittling the other's point of view, walls are thrown up and the message remains in the perspective ideological camps.

The result is that nothing changes and abortions continue go on.



Jim