We Need To Evolve - But To Where?

[Bruce S]

[quote]Where Are We Going? - Our Sunday Visitor

[b]The church is in the midst of a massive change in social, political, economic, and cultural conditions. It is groping toward a new understanding of its situation and seeking a new, adequate pastoral strategy.[/b] Evangelism is a key to a whole pastoral strategy adequate for our time. [b]It will be years before the new strategy will be clear in the church at large, but already many are moving toward it.[/b] How to begin? I think the words that Arch Bishop Bernardin addressed to his fellow bishops can apply in some measure to us all.

"Finally, if we bishops are to be effective evangelizers and catechists, it is essential that in our own lives we give witness to our beliefs and values-our personal acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and redeemer. And this must be a visible and perceptible witness, capable of inspiring others to the point at which, responding to God's abundant grace, they too will make a similar commitment.

"I am convinced that personal witness of a faith-filled and prayerful life is the real key to solving our [b][u]alleged[/u] 'credibility' problem[/b]-not more or fewer statements, more or fewer programs, more or fewer structures, and all the rest. These things are important and desirable . . . but they will accomplish little that is deep and lasting in the absence of direct, personal witness by each of us to Jesus and his message . . . on fire with zeal to proclaim Jesus Christ and His good news....

"In this process we must be willing to accept risks as did the Lord Himself. For instance, the risk of taking new steps for which there is no guaranteed success. [b]The risk of looking foolish when our initiatives, even before they are taken, are misunderstood or rejected. [/b]The risk of being called unpastoral and insensitive when we insist that to accept Christ's teaching in its fullness and integrity involves freely assuming burdens which, humanly speaking, are not easy to bear at any time and are perhaps especially difficult at a time when there are many inducements and rewards for doing otherwise."
[/quote]

Now that is doubletalk. What EXACTLY is the Arch Bishop saying, and WHERE does the Catholic Church need to evolve to, in it's never ending quest to stay the same, yet change, never move, but always be current, keep ancient, yet be modern...

Help this fellow, me, understand what he might be getting to?

[Brother Adam]

The church took a stupid pill and now it is correcting that mistake.

[Bruce S]

[quote]The church took a stupid pill and now it is correcting that mistake. [/quote]

Why?

If you are always RIGHT, as I keep getting crammed down my throat, and never ever go wrong, why ANY need for change?

Or...

Does the Catholic Church need reformation AGAIN...sheesh, how many times do we have to shame you into some? We heretics who try FIRST to effect reform internally, and begin to leave, both at the more conservative and more liberal ends of the faithful?

What is it about the Catholic Church that leads it so often into stagnation?

I submit, for consideration, that the Catholic Church is first and foremost a GOVERNMENT, and that is where it goes wrong.

It cannot ever be differently now, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

God is not a government on earth, but faith, and denomination, ANY AND ALL denomination just keeps making the same mistakes, over and over, and will till the end of times.

People love power, they always did, and always will, and will go ANY lengths to keep and enhance temporal power and wealth. This includes cover-ups of mistakes, and keeping butts in the pews and paying the tithes. I'm NOT singling out the Catholic Church, it is just like everyone else. But few denominations have this obsession with control, and subjegation of thought, outside of cults.

That incluse EVERY known denomination extant.

Edited April 10, 2004 by Bruce S

[Bruce S]

[quote]Bishop Juan Hervas, put his finger on this problem when he talked about the pervasive tendency in the Catholic Church in its ordinary pastoral practice towards a "minimalist corruption of the gospel." By this he meant the tendency in the church to ask less from the people than the gospel asks,[b] and to offer less to the people than the gospel offers. [/b]

Often the pastoral approach of the [b]Catholic Church has tended to promote and preserve a lukewarm Christianity.[/b] The Lord's attitude toward such a tendency is clearly expressed in Revelation: "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation. [b]I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth' "[/b] (Rev. 3:14-16, RSV).
[/quote]

Notice that even IMMEDIATELY before ANY schisms, Jesus in Revelations starts to strike back at HIS chuch, not the Roman Church, not the Protestants, one of the very first 7 Church's.

If you are tied in to so so Christianity, going through the motions, just doing what your leaders do... in short, LUKEWARM.

Jesus hates you with a passion.

Passive Christains are an abomination to him, and where are they found? In the CHURCH too, not in the pagan haunts.

Edited April 10, 2004 by Bruce S

[Brother Adam]

[quote]If you are tied in to so so Christianity, going through the motions, just doing what your leaders do... in short, LUKEWARM.[/quote]

Amen brother, however this hardly negates the intimacy and need for liturgical worship. There are some who abuse it and "go through the motions", but not everyone, certianly. I don't think a Catholic on this board does.

There may be a need to correct a matter of dicipline, culture, whatever, but what you haven't adequately proved is how the Catholic Church has backed off a doctrine it once taught infallibly, and now refutes it. The best case so far I've been able to read about is limbo, yet offically, the church hasn't changed on it.

[Bruce S]

[quote]
[img]http://www.rcf.org/images/rcf.gif[/img]

As followers of Christ and members of His Church we must stand in opposition to evil! There is a very real conflict, a "spiritual warfare" that the followers of Jesus are called to take up. This is revealed with crystalline clarity in all forms of revelation. God calls His followers to reject the ways of this world and follow him. This warfare is not for the weak or the faint of heart, and many are simply not capable. St. Thomas Aquinas said, "Grace builds on Nature." That is why the Israelites spent 40 years in the desert. A generation of slaves with a slave's mentality had to die off and a new people, strong and toughened by the harsh life of the desert had to rise up.[b] Most Catholics today seem to be like those slaves. They are simply not capable of dealing with the truth. And the truth is that the evil that is everywhere in this world is also deep within the Church.[/b] Pope Leo the XIII noticed it and composed the "Prayer to St. Michael". Pope Paul VI proclaimed that the "Smoke of Satan has entered the sanctuary"! [b]Throughout the history of the Church it has always been those who are within that have caused the most damage. Remember that Judas was a bishop and nearly [B]all the heresies that have ravaged the Church throughout history have come from priests and bishops. [/b]In an earlier age we were better equipped to deal with this evil and protect the truth. [b][color=red]No less a Saint than St. John Chrysostom said, "The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops[/color]![/b]"

[/quote]

That is harsh language, and not a Protestant in sight....

Lemmings are NOT what Christ commanded us to be.

Nor cut and paste people using the CCC instead of our brains, allowing Bishops to lead wherever they want to lead.

There MUST be a FIRM, unchanging, fixed constant. Not Newman style "Evolution of Doctrine" [read a moving ever morphing here today, gone tomorrow religious doctrine. That is why this lack of discernment, by INDIVIDUALS and kowtowing deferential submission to authority is wrong. And YOUR guys are telling you that, so don't attack ME, OK?]

Edited April 10, 2004 by Bruce S

[Justified Saint]

Well, what can I say Bruce, where would we be without you? Instead of the Church telling us what our faith is, we have you to tell us what our faith means! Go figure.

[Brother Adam]

link please and thank you.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote]There are some who abuse it and "go through the motions", but not everyone, certianly. I don't think a Catholic on this board does. [/quote]

I do! (Mea culpa!) Sometimes I am not [i]into[/i] the worship. Sometimes I am just keeping the seat warm, as my evangelical friends might say. But I pray for conversion (my own especially), and I ask God to increase my faith, to strengthen my trust, and to let me love Him more and more.

I think the culture of indifference vs. piety is equivalent in all the denominations. I think many people (indeed, most people this side of Heaven) vacillate between the two. Some people just haven't (yet) heard that call to conversion.

Edited April 10, 2004 by theculturewarrior

[Bruce S]

[quote]Well, what can I say Bruce, where would we be without you? Instead of the Church telling us what our faith is, we have you to tell us what our faith means! Go figure. [/quote]

Hey, fight with the Catholic sources, not me, I guess you don't like it when the unified party of "We are Right" doesn't agree internally.

Grin.

[quote]The wrong kind of Catholic pride twists confidence in the truth and the treasures of Catholicism into complacency. It blinds us to the impoverished state of many Catholic institutions and many Catholics' lives.

I know of many Catholics who have fallen away from their faith-or who were living in parishes where the gospel was not being preached and morality was not being taught and no support was being given for family life-and who found a living, personal relationship with Jesus Christ in a Baptist or Assembly of God congregation.

Rather than condemning the Protestants for proselytism, we Catholics should consider the possibility that people might find more practical help in the Protestant churches for avoiding hell and attaining heaven than they were getting in their Catholic parishes.
[/quote]

Again, a Catholic writing in Our Sunday Visitor.

You certainly can't accuse me of bashing now, can you, all quotes are from Perfectly Sane Catholic sourcing.

[Livin_the_MASS]

"HERESY... According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith." [CCC 2089] According to Hilaire Belloc, "Heresy is the dislocation of some complete and self-supporting scheme by the introduction of a novel denial of some essential part therein...Heresy means, then, the warping of a system by 'Exception'..." [The Great Heresies (TAN Books, 1991) p. 2]. A heresy is not the total rejection of the Christian faith but a distortion of it. One essential truth is denied or exaggerated at the expense of another essential truth. For example, knowledge about the teachings of Christ is important, but the Gnostic heretics claimed that such knowledge was more important than faith. They taught that salvation came through knowledge and not by faith in Jesus Christ. Even though heresies are bad, we can better appreciate the true faith by knowing what to avoid."

Edited April 10, 2004 by Jason

[Livin_the_MASS]

"SOLA FIDES... The Protestant Revolt had many causes including state politics. Also the worldly lifestyle of certain popes, bishops and priests of that time helped to fuel the fire. However, the doctrine, Justification by Faith Alone, was the spark. This heresy exaggerates the truth concerning salvation by faith in Jesus Christ. Even though some members of the Church at that time, such as Tetzel and Erasmus, may not have fully understood the doctrine of salvation, this does not excuse this heresy. It claims that Christians are saved by faith alone. As biblical support, St. Paul is usually cited: "For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law." [Romans 3:28] Now this verse does not contain the word "alone." Martin Luther actually added "alone" to this verse in his Bibles in order to promote this new doctrine. According to the RSV and NAB Bible translations, the phrase, "by faith alone", only occurs once in the Bible, and that verse condemns this doctrine: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." [James 2:24] The other error is interpreting the "works of law" in Romans 3:28 as all good works. From the context, it is obvious that St. Paul is referring to the Law of Moses, and the "works of law" are circumcision, eating kosher and other Jewish practices (Acts 15:1-21). St. Paul writes elsewhere in the Bible: "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love." [Galatians 5:6] St. Paul’s understanding of faith, as expressed in the Bible, includes more than a confident trust in God, but also obedience to God (Romans 1:5). Also according to Catholic understanding, good works are not what I do but what God does through me by grace (Eph. 2:10; 1 Cor. 15:10; Rom 2:7), so there is no reason to boast (Eph. 2:9). Even though Martin Luther still understood salvation in terms of grace, some later Christians did not. With the loss of focus on grace, this heresy eventually led to a "faith-alone" version of Pelagianism. This is the reason that some (not all) Protestants reject some or all of the Sacraments, sometimes even Baptism (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16; Rom. 6:3; 1 Peter 3:21)."

Edited April 10, 2004 by Jason

[Theoketos]

There was once in the 1960's, right before Humanae Vitae came out, a committee was formed by the Pope to explore the Churches teaching on Contraception.

Barrier methods had always been banned, but now there was the pill.

10 out of the 12 said that the Churches teaching should be changed. (10 of 12 spies said that Israel could no conquer Cana). This was leaked to the Press. Certain theologians, priests, ECT thought that they could tell people it was good to use contraception.

Then Humanae Vitae came out. Loud protests from dissenting theologians.
JP II then Karol Wajolta was one of two that said contraception is very evil.

JP II has gone on to write Theology of Body and Love and Responsibility, both hailed as the best works of the last century.

Just an example of the Church taking the stupid pill and the Holy Spirit Mopping up the Mess.

[Bruce S]

[quote]HERESY... According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, [/quote]

Careful here Jason.

We might, so easily find a lot of heresy at the highest levels with that definition.

You really don't want to go there...

[Livin_the_MASS]

[b]"Heresy is the dislocation of some complete and self-supporting scheme by the introduction of a novel denial of some essential part therein...Heresy means, then, the warping of a system by 'Exception'..." [The Great Heresies (TAN Books, 1991) p. 2]. A heresy is not the total rejection of the Christian faith but a distortion of it. One essential truth is denied or exaggerated at the expense of another essential truth.[/b]

Read the whole thing Brucey!

God Bless
Jason