Christ Never Named His Church

[Livin_the_MASS]

Hey big guy if you [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=10197"]LOOK HERE[/url] I think you do the samething? A big oh C and P man!


Smoooch
God Bless You Bruce
Jason

[Livin_the_MASS]

Bump for LJ

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 10 2004, 02:48 AM']no, you both miss my point.

Jason posted that it is based off of Jesus teachings, not those of the apostles and disciples, and not even that of the Bible.  it explicitly says Jesus.



show me where [b]Christ[/b] taught of ANY of the things I ask.[/quote]
[quote]Jason posted that it is based off of Jesus teachings, not those of the apostles and disciples, and not even that of the Bible.[/quote]

LJ, thats a silly question, why did Jesus pick the twelve disciples for, to teach them His ways, all throught Sacred Scripture Christ is teaching His apostles.

Parables were explained to them, at the Last Supper when He gave us the Holy Eurcharist they were instructed what to do.

So ya, it does go back to Jesus, but it doesn't leave a big void in space. You can go from this Pope all the way back to Jesus. All the way through the apostles to Jesus and yes we still have the Bible because the Bible is the Word of God written by the Holy Spirit who is One with the Father and the Son. Jesus is One with the Father and the Holy Spirit so you can't take away the Bible. You kind of got me confused on the Bible thing?

God Bless
Jason

[the lumberjack]

okay, fine...

show me in the Bible where THE APOSTLES taught that Mary was the mother of God....

or that it was okay for us to ask dead(not in this realm of being) saints or ANGELS to intercede for us to God...

Since you know, the Apostle's teachings were direct reflections of Christ's teachings.

please and Thank you.


God Bless.

[Archangel]

I explained earlier that you misinterpreted Jason's statement regarding the teaching authority of the Magisterium:

[quote][b]The Church is apostolic because of the unbroken line from the apostles to the bishops whose [u]teaching authority[/u], the Magisterium, [u]can be traced to the eternal and unquestionable teachings of Christ[/u].[/b][/quote]

Now your just tossing out straw man arguments.

[the lumberjack]

and I'm simply asking for the teachings that they draw their authority from.

that is not straw man...whatever that means.

show me where the apostles taught any of that?

or taught mary as our "co-redemtrix"

or any of the other "extra" methods of salvation...eg baptism of desire, ignorance of the true church.

God bless.

[Archangel]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 11 2004, 01:18 AM']and I'm simply asking for the teachings that they draw their authority from.[/quote]
You're still misinterpreting. The [b]authority of the Magisterium[/b] came from Jesus Himself. You can read where He gave the authority to the Apostles (and their successors, the bishops) here: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=4690"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=4690[/url]

[the lumberjack]

i'm asking YOU...or Jason...whoever wants to tackle this apparent MONSTER...to show me.

list the scripture that shows me the teachings from where the authority comes from.

if you can't find the scripture, then there is no authority.

you yourself, and Jason, both say that the Bible is the Word of God, do you not?...breathed by Himself thru the pen of man by His Holy Ghost.

if so, then this should be where you draw your authority from. From Christ's teachings...like it says.

please and thank you.

God bless.

[Archangel]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 11 2004, 01:34 AM']list the scripture that shows me the teachings from where the authority comes from.[/quote]
Here is one scripture where Jesus imparts authority:

[b]Matt. 16:19, "I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."[/b]

More can be found in the articles in the "Church Authority & Apostolic Succession" reference section: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=4690"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=4690[/url]

[the lumberjack]

okay...I'm gonna not post here till I see teachings from either Jesus Christ Himself or those of the apostles that teach any of the things I've asked.

till then, have at it...look it up.

but don't give me links to your apologetics page, and don't give me scripture that is Jesus giving authority to the apostles...because that in itself, is not a teaching.

the apostles had authority from Christ, fine, I know that.

show me the teachings of the Apostles in the BIBLE.

please and thank you.

God bless.

[Bruce S]

Lumber, we have to conceded that Jesus gave the APOSTLES the binding rights.

It is in SUCCESSION AFTER the Apostles that this falls apart.

Where does that gift, extend to the church today?

In truth, that is the problem, that those alive today in the Catholic Church are still with those rights that Jesus gave?

We don't accept that. The errors that the Catholic Church has made, the kiddie popes, the bought and sold papacy in the middle ages make that tradition very, very, questionable.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 11 2004, 08:19 AM'] Lumber, we have to conceded that Jesus gave the APOSTLES the binding rights.

It is in SUCCESSION AFTER the Apostles that this falls apart.

Where does that gift, extend to the church today?

In truth, that is the problem, that those alive today in the Catholic Church are still with those rights that Jesus gave?

We don't accept that. The errors that the Catholic Church has made, the kiddie popes, the bought and sold papacy in the middle ages make that tradition very, very, questionable. [/quote]
We see it in the writings of the first Christians.

Where does it say that succession isn't the way it's supposed to be?

If succession where not true, then how could the Church last until the end of age?

Succession is clearly seen in the bible:
Acts of the Apostles 1,15-17.20-26.

During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place). He said, "My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus. He was numbered among us and was allotted a share in this ministry. For it is written in the Book of Psalms: 'Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.' And: 'May another take his office.' Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection." So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias. Then they prayed, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place." Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.


[b]St. Matt 28:18 [/b]Then Jesus approached and said to them, "[color=red]All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.[/color]
[b]19 [/b][color=red]Go, therefore, and [b]make disciples of all nations[/b], baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, [/color]
[b]20 [/b][color=red]teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age[/color]."



Please note the dates and read them for yourself at [url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/fathers/"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/fathers/[/url]


Pope Clement I



"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).


Hegesippus



"When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord" (Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [A.D. 180]).


Irenaeus



"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:2).

"Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time" (ibid., 3:3:4).

"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question?" (ibid., 3:4:1).

"[I]t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth" (ibid., 4:26:2).

"The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere" (ibid., 4:33:8).


Tertullian



"[The apostles] founded churches in every city, from which all the other churches, one after another, derived the tradition of the faith, and the seeds of doctrine, and are every day deriving them, that they may become churches. Indeed, it is on this account only that they will be able to deem themselves apostolic, as being the offspring of apostolic churches. Every sort of thing must necessarily revert to its original for its classification. Therefore the churches, although they are so many and so great, comprise but the one primitive Church, [founded] by the apostles, from which they all [spring]. In this way, all are primitive, and all are apostolic, while they are all proved to be one in unity" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 20 [A.D. 200]).

"[W]hat it was which Christ revealed to them [the apostles] can, as I must here likewise prescribe, properly be proved in no other way than by those very churches which the apostles founded in person, by declaring the gospel to them directly themselves . . . If then these things are so, it is in the same degree manifest that all doctrine which agrees with the apostolic churches—those molds and original sources of the faith must be reckoned for truth, as undoubtedly containing that which the churches received from the apostles, the apostles from Christ, [and] Christ from God. Whereas all doctrine must be prejudged as false which savors of contrariety to the truth of the churches and apostles of Christ and God. It remains, then, that we demonstrate whether this doctrine of ours, of which we have now given the rule, has its origin in the tradition of the apostles, and whether all other doctrines do not ipso facto proceed from falsehood" (ibid., 21).

"But if there be any [heresies] which are bold enough to plant [their origin] in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [their first] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men—a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles. For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter" (ibid., 32).

"But should they even effect the contrivance [of composing a succession list for themselves], they will not advance a step. For their very doctrine, after comparison with that of the apostles [as contained in other churches], will declare, by its own diversity and contrariety, that it had for its author neither an apostle nor an apostolic man; because, as the apostles would never have taught things which were self-contradictory" (ibid.).

"Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic Church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith" (ibid.).


Cyprian of Carthage



"[T]he Church is one, and as she is one, cannot be both within and without. For if she is with [the heretic] Novatian, she was not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop [of Rome], Fabian, by lawful ordination, and whom, beside the honor of the priesthood the Lord glorified also with martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church; nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who, succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself. For he who has not been ordained in the Church can neither have nor hold to the Church in any way" (Letters 69[75]:3 [A.D. 253]).


Jerome



"Far be it from me to speak adversely of any of these clergy who, in succession from the apostles, confect by their sacred word the Body of Christ and through whose efforts also it is that we are Christians" (Letters 14:8 [A.D. 396]).


Augustine



"[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church’s] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 4:5 [A.D. 397]).





From www.Britannica.com

[b]Roman Catholicism
Encyclopædia Britannica Article [/b]


Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure that traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity.



About AD 95 Clement, bishop of Rome, in his letter to the church in Corinth ( First Letter of Clement ), expressed the view that bishops succeeded the Apostles.

originally titled Letter To The Church Of Corinth; also called I Clement, a letter to the Christian Church in Corinth from the church of Rome, traditionally ascribed to and almost certainly written by St. Clement I of Rome, c. AD 96. It is extant in a 2nd-century Latin translation, which is possibly the oldest surviving Latin Christian work. Regarded as scripture by many 3rd- and 4th-century Christians, it was transmitted in manuscripts with a sermon known as the Second Letter of Clement, written c. 125–140 by an unknown author.

Concerned about a dispute in the Corinthian Church in which younger members had deposed older men from the ministry, the letter opposed the deposition and discussed the orders of the ministry, which it asserted were established by the Apostles and were the will of God. The First Letter of Clement was an important influence on the development in the church of the episcopal orders of the ministry (bishops, priests, deacons), and it has been used to support the doctrine of the apostolic succession, according to which bishops represent a direct, unbroken line of succession from the Apostles.



The idea of apostolic succession appears in the writings of Irenaeus, a Church Father who died about 202. Against the Gnostics (dualistic sects that maintained that salvation is not from faith but from some esoteric knowledge) Irenaeus urged that the Catholic teaching was verified because a continuous succession of teachers, beginning with the Apostles, could be demonstrated. In the 3rd and 4th centuries problems of schism within churches were resolved by appealing to the power of orders (i.e., the powers a person has by reason of his ordination either as deacon, priest, or bishop) transmitted by the imposition of hands through a chain from the Apostles. Orders in turn empowered the subject to receive the power of jurisdiction (i.e., the powers an ordained person has by reason of his office). In disputes between Rome and the Eastern churches the idea of apostolic succession was centred in the Roman pontiff, the successor of Peter; it will be observed that this goes beyond the idea of collegial succession. Apostolic authority is defined as the power to teach, to administer the sacraments, and to rule the church. Apostolic succession in the Roman Catholic understanding is validated only by the recognition of the Roman pontiff; and the Roman Catholic Church understands the designation “apostolic” in the creed as referring to this threefold power under the primacy of the Roman pontiff.

The idea of apostolic succession appears in the writings of Irenaeus, a Church Father who died about 202. Against the Gnostics (dualistic sects that maintained that salvation is not from faith but from some esoteric knowledge) Irenaeus urged that the Catholic teaching was verified because a continuous succession of teachers, beginning with the Apostles, could be demonstrated. In the 3rd and 4th centuries problems of schism within churches were resolved by appealing to the power of orders (i.e., the powers a person has by reason of his ordination either as deacon, priest, or bishop) transmitted by the imposition of hands through a chain from the Apostles. Orders in turn empowered the subject to receive the power of jurisdiction (i.e., the powers an ordained person has by reason of his office). In disputes between Rome and the Eastern churches the idea of apostolic succession was centred in the Roman pontiff, the successor of Peter; it will be observed that this goes beyond the idea of collegial succession. Apostolic authority is defined as the power to teach, to administer the sacraments, and to rule the church. Apostolic succession in the Roman Catholic understanding is validated only by the recognition of the Roman pontiff; and the Roman Catholic Church understands the designation “apostolic” in the creed as referring to this threefold power under the primacy of the Roman pontiff.




God Bless, Love in Christ,
ironmonk

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 11 2004, 06:34 AM']i'm asking YOU...or Jason...whoever wants to tackle this apparent MONSTER...to show me.

list the scripture that shows me the teachings from where the authority comes from.

if you can't find the scripture, then there is no authority.

you yourself, and Jason, both say that the Bible is the Word of God, do you not?...breathed by Himself thru the pen of man by His Holy Ghost.

if so, then this should be where you draw your authority from.  From Christ's teachings...like it says.

please and thank you.

God bless.[/quote]
LJ,

John Ch.16:12:12-13
[b]"I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.[/b] But when He comes, the Spirit of Truth, He will guide you to all Truth.

This verse clearly states that Christ had more to teach and tell His apostles and the Church. This is when He say that The Holy Spirit will come and reveal all Truths.

I gave this to you before just in case you skipped over it, in Johns Gospel at the very end of it in the Conclusion 24-25

"It is this disciple who testifies to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true. [b]There are also many other things Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written."[/b]

This right here shows that Jesus did things in his life that were not recorded. The above quote Jesus says "I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now"

He left it up to the Holy Spirit to reveal all Truths. So The Holy Spirit through the years has taught The Church that Mary was Assumed into Heaven Body and Soul and that Her Son Jesus Christ the only Son of God crowned Her Queen and Mother of Heaven and earth.

The Holy Spirit reveals things down through time, when The Spirit Wills to reveal it.

Here is another good one for The Bible Alone thing at the end of John 20: 30-31

"Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of [his] disciples [b]that are not written in this book.[/b] But these are written that you may [come to] believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name."

To come to believe in the Messiah--Jesus Christ, you must believe everything that He has taught.

God Bless
Jason

[Paladin D]

Christ did name His Church, it's called the [b]Church of Mod(erator)[/b].

[Bruce S]

[quote]Christ did name His Church, it's called the Church of Mod(erator).

[/quote]

And the Pope around these parts is....

dUSt?

Grin.

Does that mean dUSt is Infallible too?

chuckle....