Christ Never Named His Church

[Livin_the_MASS]

"Christ never named His Church so that false churches could not claim it as their church. Instead He gave it four distinctive characteristics that no other church has, or can possibly copy. These marks declare the Church to be the true faith and the instrument of salvation. It is the one Church in the world, founded by belonging completely to Christ, as opposed to other rival churches of Christianity claiming to be the true church. These four marks were first enumerated by the First Council of Constantinople in the year 381.

[b]1) The Church is one because its members are united in faith and doctrine, under the pope.

2) The Church is holy because it offers the means of sanctifying grace and because it was founded by Christ and is animated by the Holy Spirit.

3) The Church is Catholic (meaning universal) because it is intended for all peoples in all places of the world.

4) The Church is apostolic because of the unbroken line from the apostles to the bishops whose teaching authority, the Magisterium, can be traced to the eternal and unquestionable teachings of Christ.[/b]

"Jesus Christ established one religion; He wanted it to be preached in its entirety to all peoples of the earth, to endure until the end of time and to be embraced by all men. Reason tells us that it would not be possible to have several true churches. A Church, in order to be true, must teach the pure doctrine of Jesus Christ. Since that is necessarily one, only one true Church can be found among those that possess cantrary doctrines.

"Only the Catholic Church claims Christ as both its divine Founder and its Head. All other denominations claim Christ as their head but they admit that a man is their founder!

"Christ did not say: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Churches, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them!" Christ said: "And I say unto you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Mt 16:18)

"As long as he lived, St. Peter was the head of the Church. The bishops that he established were invested with the dignity but not with leadership of the Church, which he kept until his death. When he died, his successor inherited his title of Bishop of Rome and also the power of head of the Church, just as a prince, who succeeds a king, inherits all the authority with which he had been invested."

Quotes from the book: "Does this shock you?"
by: Louis Kaczmarek

God Bless
Jason

[the lumberjack]

and we all know what a DEVOUT christian constantine was, right?

meshing pagan holidays and rituals with christian ones...ever the political strategist.

thanks for the doc, Jason.

oh, and by the way....

[quote] The Church is apostolic because of the unbroken line from the apostles to the bishops whose teaching authority, the Magisterium, can be traced to the eternal and unquestionable teachings of Christ.[/quote]

can YOU show me just where in the Bible JESUS taught that Mary was the mother of God?

or that we should pray for the dead saints to intercede for us?

"[color=red]and whatever you pray in MY NAME[/color]"

and all the other verses JESUS calls us to pray to the Father in His name.

and when did Jesus say that He would give us anything other than the Holy Spirit to be our helper, to guide us in all truth....?

JESUS never said that we would be subject to a conglomoration of religion, with its governmental structure and rigidity throughout the world.

I don't remember Jesus EVER teaching that.

but....that might just not be in my Bible.

[Archangel]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 9 2004, 08:10 PM']thanks for the doc, Jason.[/quote]
Yes, Jason, thank you.

[Archangel]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 9 2004, 08:10 PM']can YOU show me just where in the Bible JESUS taught that Mary was the mother of God?[/quote]
It was actually the Holy Spirit in the first chapter of Luke:

41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the [b]holy Spirit[/b],
42 cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
43 And how does this happen to me, that the [b]mother of my Lord[/b] should come to me?

[Archangel]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 9 2004, 08:10 PM']I don't remember Jesus EVER teaching that.

but....that might just not be in my Bible.  [/quote]
I don't remember Jesus EVER teaching which books should be in the bible either.

[Mary's Knight, La]

since Mater Dei was handled deftly by Archangel, allow me to deal quicker and clumsier with the issue of the saints:


if we can ask the living to pray for us which Paul frequently does then why should we not ask the "cloud of witnesses" (Heb 12:1) which surrounds us to pray for us also, in short in order to prove that asking the saints to pray for us is wrong you must also say Paul is wrong to ask the churches to pray for him

as for your question on the papacy

Mathew 16:19

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John Chap 21

15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.


these verses among others single Peter out as having a special role among the apostles to guide them appointed by Jesus and that Jesus declared that the Holy Spirit would work through Peter's leading the apostles otherwise Jesus would be setting up two heads for His church

[the lumberjack]

no, you both miss my point.

Jason posted that it is based off of Jesus teachings, not those of the apostles and disciples, and not even that of the Bible. it explicitly says Jesus.

[quote]The Church is apostolic because of the unbroken line from the apostles to the bishops whose teaching authority, the Magisterium, can be traced to the eternal and unquestionable teachings of Christ.[/quote]

show me where [b]Christ[/b] taught of ANY of the things I ask.

[Archangel]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 9 2004, 09:48 PM']no, you both miss my point.[/quote]
Regardless, you miss the point of Jesus. In Matthew 16:18, Jesus teaches "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."

You need to ask yourself: Are you part of Jesus' church that He builds upon Peter? Namely, the Catholic Church?

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Regardless, you miss the point of Jesus. In Matthew 16:18, Jesus teaches "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."

You need to ask yourself: Are you part of Jesus' church that He builds upon Peter? Namely, the Catholic Church?[/quote]

thank you for using Automated Answer no. 1698.

the protestant rests.

no really, I'm goin to bed....I'll be back later.

Lord willing.

oh....you still haven't answered ANYTHING. Jason posted one thing from Quotes from the book: "Does this shock you?" by: Louis Kaczmarek

...YOU say another...

[quote][b]The Church is apostolic because of the unbroken line from the apostles to the bishops whose teaching authority, the Magisterium, [u]can be traced to the eternal and unquestionable teachings of Christ.[/u][/b][/quote]

trace the teachings back to CHRIST for me, could ya? thanks.

[Archangel]

I did give an answer. I'm sorry if it is not the one you wanted, but it still my answer nonetheless.

You didn't even answer my question: Are you part of Jesus' church that He builds upon Peter?

[Archangel]

[quote][b]The Church is apostolic because of the unbroken line from the apostles to the bishops whose [u]teaching authority, the Magisterium[/u], can be traced to the eternal and unquestionable teachings of Christ.[/b][/quote]

You miss the point of this statement. It speaks of the the [b]authority of the Magisterium[/b] to teach the Church. This [b]authority[/b] can be traced to the "eternal and unquestionable teaching" of Christ that the Apostles (and their successors, the bishops) have such [b]authority[/b].

You can read all about it in the Apologetics section on "Church Authority & Apostolic Succession": [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=4690"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=4690[/url]

Have a good night.

Edited April 10, 2004 by Archangel

[Bruce S]

[quote]thank you for using Automated Answer no. 1698.

[/quote]

LOL, that one is priceless, I have to remember that one...

Like debating a telephone:

"If you are a Catholic hit key #1, if considering Catholicm hit key #2, if you are Mormon hold for Operator....YOUR call is important, please do not hang up, all our operators are busy..."

Grin.

[Brother Adam]

Bruce and lumberjack get a kick out of being here and hearing the same answers over and over. Yet. lol. Yet, they can't prove anything wrong with inductive Bible study. Oops.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 10 2004, 01:10 AM']and we all know what a DEVOUT christian constantine was, right?

meshing pagan holidays and rituals with christian ones...ever the political strategist.

thanks for the doc, Jason.

oh, and by the way....



can YOU show me just where in the Bible JESUS taught that Mary was the mother of God?

or that we should pray for the dead saints to intercede for us?

"[color=red]and whatever you pray in MY NAME[/color]"

and all the other verses JESUS calls us to pray to the Father in His name.

and when did Jesus say that He would give us anything other than the Holy Spirit to be our helper, to guide us in all truth....?

JESUS never said that we would be subject to a conglomoration of religion, with its governmental structure and rigidity throughout the world. 

I don't remember Jesus EVER teaching that.

but....that might just not be in my Bible.   [/quote]
LJ,

Maybe this will help I'll try this first, and yes I'm going to give you a quote from Scott Hahns book "Scripture Matters" (rememeber I type this not c/p ok)

"In the supernatural family of the saints, Mary, the Mother of God, holds an eminet place. Of all creatures, Mary is directly related to God by a natural bond of covent kinship; she is the Mother of Jesus, to Whom she gave her own flesh and blood. This bond enabled mankind to share the grace of Christ by adoption. Thus, as brothers and sisters of Christ, Christians are also children of Mary, and so bound to honor her as their Mother.

"Futhermore, Jesus Himself is legally bound by His Father's law ("Honor you father and your mother") to share His honor with Mary. Indeed, He fulfilled this law more perfectly than any son has ever done, by bestowing the gift of His divine glory upon Mary. Christians, then, are called to imitate Him in this way, as in all other ways. Thus the correspondence is complete. God's familiy is perfect, lacking nothing. In His tender Mercy, God gave Christians a Mother."

Ok now I know that you have probably heard the old saying "the New Testament is concealed in the Old, and the Old is reavealed in the New." Like I've said before Scripture cannot be taken out of context it has to be taken as a whole. Now I'll give a little quote from Dr. Hahn's book to explain it better.

"In the Bible, and only the Bible, things that are visible, temproral, earthly, and human serve as signs of deeper mysteries that are invisible, eternal, heavenly, and divine. Thus, for example, in John's Gospel, Jesus speaks of the manna given to the Israelites as prefiguring the Eucharist (cf. Jn. 6) and the crossing of the Red Sea as foreshadowing Baptism (cf. Jn. 3). The manna and the Exodus were real historical events, but they also served as signs of something greater, transcendent, and supernatural."

So if the issue is with Mary that you have look in Old Testament for a pre figure of Her if you want to use Bible alone for now.

Quote Scott Hahn "Hail Holy Queen"

"Between Bathsheba and Nehushta there were many queen mothers. Some worked for good, some didn't; but none was a was a mere figurehead. Gebirah was more than a title; it was an office with real authority. Consider the following scene from early in Solomon's reign: "So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king's mother; and she sat on his right" (1 Kgs 2:19).....

[b]"We see in the epic of Gilgamesh, for example, that the queen mother in Mesopotamia was considered an intercessor, or advocate, for the people.

"Next, we notice that Solomon rose from his throne when his mother entered the room. This makes the queen unique among the royal subjects. Anyone else would, following protocol, rise in Solomon's presence; even the king's wives were required to bow before him (1 Kgs 1:16). Yet Solomon rose to honor Bathsheba. Moreover, he showed her further respect by bowing before her and by seating her in the place of greatest honor, at his right hand......"[/b]

Now I will tell you this LJ look at the very end of John Chapter 21:24-25 "The Conclusion."

"It is this disciple who testifies to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true. [b]There are also many things that Jesus did, but if thse were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written."[/b]

Does this not state that there were things Jesus did that were not recorded in the Bible?

I'll leave at this for now
God Bless
Jason

Edited April 10, 2004 by Jason

[Bruce S]

Hey, Xerox guy, how you doing this afternoon? !

I'm going to nominate you for Bumper Sticker duty, you can put them on all the people leaving Mass.

[b]The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail Against, "Insert Current Doctrine Here."[/b]

Smooch.