"i Shot Us Abortion Doctor To Protect Children,"

[Jesus_lol]

who the hell shoots a guy in church??

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='29 January 2010 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1264798843' post='2047413']
who the hell shoots a guy in church??
[/quote]

Well, this guy, apparently.

[Jaime]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='29 January 2010 - 04:10 PM' timestamp='1264799446' post='2047417']
Well, this guy, [s]apparently[/s] Jesus_lol
[/quote]

fixed it

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='28 January 2010 - 10:24 PM' timestamp='1264735479' post='2046933']
Its a failed example. If I stand between an innocent person and a madman with a gun, I'm defending that person. If however, I go into that madman's church and gun him down preemptively, I'm a murderer.
[/quote]

Not to be a jerk, but our military works on the basis of preemptive strikes. So it is morally justifiable if the person wears a uniform? In my history I was told that these events were morally ok because of the greater good, but then I see this person did the same?

Not that I am arguing that what he did was right, just exploring the issue.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='31 January 2010 - 05:53 PM' timestamp='1264982005' post='2048547']
Not to be a jerk, but our military works on the basis of preemptive strikes. So it is morally justifiable if the person wears a uniform? In my history I was told that these events were morally ok because of the greater good, but then I see this person did the same?

Not that I am arguing that what he did was right, just exploring the issue.
[/quote]

War-time preemptive military strikes upon military targets are vastly different than the intentional homocide of a civilian in my opinion. Tiller was not an imminent threat to the unborn. As I have stated in previous posts, Roeder killed Tiller in a church to demonstrate Tiller's religious hypocrisy.

[Brother Adam]

Okay, so the elephant in the room:

Would it be morally justifiable if Roeder had shot Tiller during an abortion?

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='31 January 2010 - 07:03 PM' timestamp='1264982636' post='2048554']
War-time preemptive military strikes upon military targets are vastly different than the intentional homocide of a civilian in my opinion. Tiller was not an imminent threat to the unborn. As I have stated in previous posts, Roeder killed Tiller in a church to demonstrate Tiller's religious hypocrisy.
[/quote]

As someone who has been there, the difference is perspective.

The hypocrisy thing is bizarre. It makes it seem as if he was not sacrificing his freedom for the lives of the children, but rather to prove a point.

Idk. I am rambling. I do wish that we would not be apathetic towards abortion. I feel that we are not doing enough. I see how people reacted against the killings Hitler did and we simply talk on a message board.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='31 January 2010 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1264983023' post='2048562']
Okay, so the elephant in the room:

Would it be morally justifiable if Roeder had shot Tiller during an abortion?
[/quote]

Yes that is the question that needs to be addressed. I got into a heated discussion with my wife over the issue. If I believe life begins at conception and is worth protecting and I also believe that I have the moral duty to defend innocent life even to the extent of using lethal force....then what is the moral problem with shooting an abortion doctor mid-abortion?

I would say that it could be conceived as morally permissible. However, I think it likely that a non-lethal force would suffice just as readily. Not to sound morbid or to suggest anything scandalous, but horribly maiming the hands of an abortion doctor would suffice for stopping him from performing abortions himself. This doesn't mean that he would be prevented from having his nurses do it and him simply signing off on the procedure, but it would not require lethal force. It's a tough question...but if you are willing to kill someone in self defense or in the defense of a stranger who is being mortally accosted, then why not for a fetus whom you believe is equally worthy of life.

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='31 January 2010 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1264992930' post='2048615']
As someone who has been there, the difference is perspective.

The hypocrisy thing is bizarre. It makes it seem as if he was not sacrificing his freedom for the lives of the children, but rather to prove a point.
[/quote]

I've never been in a war zone so I'll have to take your word for it. I wasn't trying to purport an absolute dichotomy between his assertion that he was sacrificing his freedom for the lives of children and his intent to prove a point. Such a dichotomy would indeed be bizarre. I think he killed Tiller because in his head that was the only way he could protect the lives of the unborn that Tiller was aborting; however I think the premeditated [i]location [/i]of the killing was a consequence of Roeder's desire to prove a theological/political point with his killing. Roeder could have killed this guy [i]anywhere [/i]in all honesty, I don't care what the defense attorneys say about locked gates and house alarms. Roeder blew this guys brains all over the carpet of that Lutheran Church; to kill a monster in a church community that honors monsters is a point that can't be missed.

And I agree with your sentiment that we as a pro-life movement are somewhat impotent in terms of stopping abortions outside of our efforts to abrogate unjust laws and replace them with laws based upon solid moral principles. In this instance I am reminded of a quote of St. Thomas More in the film [i]A Man for All Seasons[/i], "And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned on you, where would you hide?...the laws all being flat? This country is planted with laws from coast to coast...Man's laws, not God's, and if you cut them down do you really think you could stand upright in the wind that would blow then? I give the Devil benefit of law for my own safety's sake."

Edited February 1, 2010 by Veridicus

[KeenanParkerII]

[quote]Would it be morally justifiable if Roeder had shot Tiller during an abortion? [/quote]

I'd let him get away with it, and probably spend the rest of my life asking for forgiveness. But it still isn't morally justifiable.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='KeenanParkerII' date='31 January 2010 - 09:28 PM' timestamp='1264994920' post='2048634']
I'd let him get away with it, and probably spend the rest of my life asking for forgiveness. But it still isn't morally justifiable.
[/quote]

"Is it morally [i]permissible [/i]to use lethal force to defend innocent life?" And then the subsequent question, "Are we morally [i]obligated [/i]to use lethal force to defend innocent life?"


I think we need to consult the Summa on this one.

[KeenanParkerII]

Wouldn't even know where to start. The catechism tells us we can wage war so long as it's a just war; but, depending on circumstances, do they equate?

[Veridicus]

[quote name='KeenanParkerII' date='31 January 2010 - 09:38 PM' timestamp='1264995484' post='2048638']
Wouldn't even know where to start. The catechism tells us we can wage war so long as it's a just war; but, depending on circumstances, do they equate?
[/quote]

I do not think individual vigilante justice equates to the just war phenomenon. That is my opinion.

[dominicansoul]

this is very interesting...

...we go to war when we feel there is a threat to our national security...or, we are attacked...this is justifiable, right? this gives our citizens the right to kill our enemies in the act of war...

..babies are being slaughtered as we speak...

...for the last 37 years, the right to have them slaughtered has been protected...

...and because of this man-made law...no one can wage war against abortionists?

...the biggest double standard of all time...

[KeenanParkerII]

True enough. Of course, it's only vigilante justice because the law is against it, and the law certainly isn't just in this case.

Still, I'd rather the guy was just tied up and kept in a mental hospital, not murdered!

EDIT: Sri Dominicansoul, my +1 quota's been reached for the day.

Edited February 1, 2010 by KeenanParkerII

[Veridicus]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='31 January 2010 - 09:50 PM' timestamp='1264996202' post='2048641']
...and because of this man-made law...no one can wage war against abortionists?

...the biggest double standard of all time...
[/quote]


[quote name='KeenanParkerII' date='31 January 2010 - 09:51 PM' timestamp='1264996318' post='2048642']
True enough. Of course, it's only vigilante justice because the law is against it, and the law certainly isn't just in this case.
[/quote]


I feel it is worth restating the St. Thomas More quote in respect to this line of thought: "And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned on you, where would you hide?...the laws all being flat? This country is planted with laws from coast to coast...[i][b]Man's laws[/b][/i], not God's, and if you cut them down do you really think you could stand upright in the wind that would blow then? I give the Devil benefit of law for my own safety's sake."

I am not convinced that unjust laws and social depravity are just cause for individual vigilante justice in the form of murder. Roeder murdered Tiller. That is what happened; their were no unborn children who were in immanent danger of being aborted and thus Roeder's actions are morally illicit in my opinion. He became the monster he hated the moment he frivolously took a life when there were other non-exhausted means to stop the abortionist. The circumvention of laws, whether they be topically just or not, is to open the door to all manner of lawlessness operating under the guise of individual moral rectitude and sacrifice.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Veridicus