dominicansoul Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/28/scott-roeder-abortion-doctor-killer [quote]A self-proclaimed born-again Christian who believes all abortions are a sin told his trial for murder today that he shot dead an abortion doctor in Wichita, Kansas, to protect unborn children. Scott Roeder said he had bought a .22-calibre Taurus gun and ammunition on 30 May 2009, the day before he shot George Tiller, and practised target shooting with his brother. Then he checked into a motel in Wichita, and the next day followed Tiller to the church in the town where the doctor was an usher. His defence lawyer asked: "Did you go and shoot Dr Tiller?" Roeder replied: "Yes." His confession is part of his defence that he felt forced to kill in order to save the lives of unborn children. He has pleaded not guilty to first-degree murder. It is the first time in US legal history that a violent anti-abortionist has been allowed to present the jury with his justification for murder. The judge in the case, Warren Wilbert, caused dismay among pro-abortionists and doctors this month when he ruled that Roeder would be allowed to present his justification to the court. Wilbert will decide later in the trial in Kansas whether the jury will be permitted to find the defendant guilty of the lesser crime of manslaughter. Tiller was killed in the Reformation Lutheran church with one shot to the head. He had long been a target for anti-abortionists as he was one of few doctors prepared to perform legal late abortions, after 21 weeks of gestation. In 1986 Tiller's clinic was bombed and in 1993 he was shot in both arms, but he carried on working. Roeder told the jury that he was born-again in 1992 after watching an evangelical television programme, the 700 Club. "That day I knelt down and I did accept Christ as my saviour." Despite frequent objections from the prosecution, the judge allowed Roeder to tell the court his conviction that abortion was murder, from conception onwards. "It is not man's job to take life — it's our Heavenly Father's. He is our creator, he gives and takes life. It's never up to man to take life, except in defence of self or others." At one point Roeder talked of foetuses being "torn limb from limb" and said foetuses in later stages of pregnancy "feel more pain". Both comments drew protests from the prosecution. Roeder said he did not approve of abortions, even in cases of rape or incest, as "two wrongs don't make a right". The only area he would consider – and he said that he "struggled" over this — would be if the mother would certainly die if she remained pregnant. After he turned to God, the jury heard, Roeder began taking part in "sidewalk counselling" – protests outside Tiller's clinic and other abortion clinics, where patients would be accosted in an attempt to dissuade them from going through with the procedure. In the defence's opening statement, Roeder's lawyer, Mark Rudy, said Roeder had grown increasingly frustrated by the inability of the authorities to stop Tiller carrying out late abortions. He had been "astonished, upset and distraught" when a jury found Tiller not guilty of breaking abortion laws in a trial shortly before the killing. "He came to the view that he was going to have to take action himself," Rudy told the jury. "He killed Dr Tiller as he believed that was the only way to save the lives of the unborn. He will tell you he had no choice."[/quote] [quote][i]Despite frequent objections from the prosecution, the judge allowed Roeder to tell the court his conviction that abortion was murder, from conception onwards. "It is not man's job to take life — it's our Heavenly Father's. He is our creator, he gives and takes life. It's never up to man to take life, except in defence of self or others."[/i][/quote] that statement really strikes at the heart of what is actually on trial here...can this murder be considered "in defence of others...?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 This is an interesting trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted January 28, 2010 Author Share Posted January 28, 2010 (edited) yes...i think so too...and i think roeder's defense is somewhat viable...although i don't believe it is right to kill any man, but in defense of others? I think he has a real argument there.... Edited January 28, 2010 by dominicansoul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 The Church in no way condemns gunning down abortion doctors as a viable defense against abortion. This will not help pro-life causes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='28 January 2010 - 04:19 PM' timestamp='1264717164' post='2046678'] The Church in no way condemns gunning down abortion doctors as a viable defense against abortion. This will not help pro-life causes. [/quote] Bit of a typo there. Edit it quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Brother Adam' date='28 January 2010 - 05:19 PM' timestamp='1264717164' post='2046678'] The Church in no way [b]condones [/b]gunning down abortion doctors as a viable defense against abortion. This will not help pro-life causes. [/quote] Right. People like this guy only hurt the pro-life movement with their hypocritical actions. I am pro-death advocating pro-life causes. Edited January 28, 2010 by eagle_eye222001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissyP89 Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 I get why he did it, but good grief, killing is still killing. It makes the rest of us look creepy, too. No wonder they say pro-lifers should be on terror watch lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='28 January 2010 - 05:14 PM' timestamp='1264720484' post='2046717'] [/quote] Ooh, and it's too late to edit! Burrrrrrrn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King's Rook's Pawn Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 (edited) *sarcasm* This will certainly help the pro-life movement *sarcasm* Edited January 29, 2010 by King's Rook's Pawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 The terms "doctor" and "clinic" have no place in this article. A doctor is a healer; a clinic is a place of healing. An abortionist does not heal, and health is not found within an abortion mill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Brother Adam' date='28 January 2010 - 05:19 PM' timestamp='1264717164' post='2046678'] The Church in no way condemns gunning down abortion doctors as a viable defense against abortion. This will not help pro-life causes. [/quote] What if someone uses lethal force against an abortion doctor while he is actually in the process of procuring an abortion (i.e. the person using lethal force is actually in the abortion clinic) and using lethal force against the abortion doctor is the only way to prevent the abortion from being procured? Edited January 29, 2010 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 The State allegedly has some "collective right" to execute people [i]after[/i] a crime, when they pose no immediate threat. Tiller was incontrovertibly a murderer. And incontrovertibly a threat. If the State refused to do anything to stop child [i]rapists[/i], would you have no right to protect children through the same means the State would presume to use, but did not? Namely, execution? ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='28 January 2010 - 05:19 PM' timestamp='1264717164' post='2046678'] The Church in no way condemns gunning down abortion doctors as a viable defense against abortion. This will not help pro-life causes. [/quote] For the sake of discussion lets play with this. If a group of innocent people pled for defense against genocide many of us would feel it was morally plausible if not our duty to defend these people. [quote]CCC 2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility. [/quote] Are we responsible to defend and protect the unborn? I speak as a soldier, as someone that has seen genocide and defensive violence. Perhaps that is why I can make this leap easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted January 29, 2010 Author Share Posted January 29, 2010 (edited) ...I posted this because i find his defensive arguments...viable... [quote]Despite frequent objections from the prosecution, the judge allowed Roeder to tell the court his conviction that [b]abortion was murder, from conception onwards. "It is not man's job to take life — it's our Heavenly Father's. He is our creator, he gives and takes life. [i]It's never up to man to take life, except in defence of self or others.[/i]" [/b] At one point Roeder talked of foetuses being "torn limb from limb" and said foetuses in later stages of pregnancy "feel more pain". [b]Both comments drew protests from the prosecution[/b].[/quote] So it is wrong to take a life to save thousands of lives... ...and apparently, it is wrong for this man to even describe the savage act of abortion in his defense... ...yet Tiller is the lawful man, because he legally tore babies limb from limb... it seems that in his heart, and in his mind...Roeder actually believes he was [i]defending[/i] life, rather than taking life... ...only the Almighty God can judge him... Edited January 29, 2010 by dominicansoul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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