Holy Water Font

[mcts]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='28 January 2010 - 08:26 AM' timestamp='1264685186' post='2046362']
rhetoricfemme, how old is your child, children are very inquisitive. How will you explain your friends atheism to your child, it seems as if it will definetily come up at some point. I could see your child asking why he does not bless him self and say grace at the table, unless he will not join you in a meal, how about the inevitable question, why doesn't he have to go to mass too?. How will your friend explain his atheism to your child, or will he be segragated from your child? I am just saying kids are impressionable, your positive influence on him with your faith may be undermined by your friends lack of faith. I hope it works out for you, what does your priest think about your arrangement?

ed
[/quote]


My brothers and I asked all of those same questions about my non-Catholic, non-practicing-Christian dad, and we all turned out pretty devout.

[rhetoricfemme]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='28 January 2010 - 08:26 AM' timestamp='1264685186' post='2046362']
rhetoricfemme, how old is your child, children are very inquisitive. How will you explain your friends atheism to your child, it seems as if it will definetily come up at some point. I could see your child asking why he does not bless him self and say grace at the table, unless he will not join you in a meal, how about the inevitable question, why doesn't he have to go to mass too?. How will your friend explain his atheism to your child, or will he be segragated from your child? I am just saying kids are impressionable, your positive influence on him with your faith may be undermined by your friends lack of faith. I hope it works out for you, what does your priest think about your arrangement?

ed
[/quote]
Our son is six months old, and yes, he is just now starting to become inquisitive about this or that. However, I don't feel the need to explain my friend's atheism to my child. He's only going to be living with us for about a year, and any questions our son might come up with in the mean time can be simply explained by telling him that, "Jeremy is not Catholic like we are, so he doesn't do all the things we do."[color="#FF0000"][b]*[/b][/color] My husband is not Catholic, so he doesn't bless himself or go to Mass, either. He fully supports my coming into the Church and the fact that our children will be raised Catholic. Right now I constantly pray for my husband to join us eventually, which I feel in my heart that he will. Right now I'm happy to know that he's a lot warmer to Catholicism than he used to be.

Our friend will not be segregated from our child. For one thing, he would not have been invited to live with us if he were the type of person I needed to worry about segregating from my children for any reason whatsoever. He respects me enough to know that I'm raising my son Catholic and that that is not something for him to talk to our child about, regardless of old he is.

We just solidified our upcoming living arrangements, so I haven't spoken to my priest about it yet. That is on my agenda, though.

[color="#FF0000"]*[/color]If anyone has a smarter way to work that to a child between six and 18 months old, I'm open to help.

Edited January 28, 2010 by rhetoricfemme

[AccountDeleted]

It might just be me but it seems as if the atheist friend is being viewed as an alien from another planet here!

Seriously folks, almost my whole family are atheists or agnostics of some kind or another (they don't label themselves as such). I wouldn't have a problem living with any of them because my faith isn't so weak that a comment from them is going to shake my world. And the thing is that they are respectful enough of me not to want to say anything that would be offensive or disrespectiful.

Throughout the Bible God tells people to be kind to the stranger in their midst, so I don't think the focus needs to be on this guy. God willing, he will be so impressed by the living example of Christ's love from these two Christians, that he will want to know more about Jesus himself.

And if he is that good a friend, he is not going to be doing anything to confuse the child, and the parents can handle any questions that might come up.


Let's live in the real world here! Atheists are people too! no offence meant but the stress on this guy's lack of religion just seemed to be getting a bit weird for me....


Also, the thread wasn't about whether the atheist should be living with them or not, but what to do about the Holy Water font! I agree with the idea of asking him if he wants one - you might be surprised - he might say, "Why not?"

Edited January 28, 2010 by nunsense

[zunshynn]

+1 Nunsense!

Personally, having been basically an atheist/nihilist (and somewhat of a venomous one towards Christianity, at that...) I would have been really offended if someone were to talk about me like I had the plague. A major influence on my conversion, I think, was that despite the fact that I was very anti-Christian, I had some wonderful friends who were kind to me regardless, never judged me, were amazingly patient, and really, I can see now, just without being pushy, showed me who God is. (These were my best friends, by the way, practically like family, not acquaintances that I had a vague, perception of their faith.)

And RhetoricFemme has repeatedly said he's not even hostile to her faith. Associating with people of other religions or of no religion is not generally an occasion of sin. If it is, there are more serious problems that one should deal with than talking to an atheist. Of course one has protect children from bad influences... but just because someone is an atheist does not mean they are going to be bad influences.

I mean, you can play the what if game all you want... but on the opposite spectrum. What will happen if you shelter your children from atheism so much that once they grow up and get jobs they suddenly encounter all these... heathen they had no idea existed? What if they become rebellious because of it? What if they have no idea how to interact with people that don't share their beliefs. What if they don't know how to defend their faith against other people's questions? What if, What if, what if... I think the important thing is just to keep your children grounded, and prepare them to maintain their faith in the real world.

Anyway, I agree ask him... I would just say that you were thinking about putting holy water fonts by all of the rooms, but that you didn't want to by his if he would be uncomfortable by it. That way, it isn't like, I want to put this holy water by your room because I want to pressure you to convert... you just already had this in mind, and wanted to know if it would make you uncomfortable. I mean, he might even feel left out if every one else's room had one and his didn't!

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='nunsense' date='28 January 2010 - 04:07 PM' timestamp='1264712859' post='2046628']
It might just be me but it seems as if the atheist friend is being viewed as an alien from another planet here!

Seriously folks, almost my whole family are atheists or agnostics of some kind or another (they don't label themselves as such). I wouldn't have a problem living with any of them because my faith isn't so weak that a comment from them is going to shake my world. And the thing is that they are respectful enough of me not to want to say anything that would be offensive or disrespectiful.

Throughout the Bible God tells people to be kind to the stranger in their midst, so I don't think the focus needs to be on this guy. God willing, he will be so impressed by the living example of Christ's love from these two Christians, that he will want to know more about Jesus himself.

And if he is that good a friend, he is not going to be doing anything to confuse the child, and the parents can handle any questions that might come up.


Let's live in the real world here! Atheists are people too! no offence meant but the stress on this guy's lack of religion just seemed to be getting a bit weird for me....


Also, the thread wasn't about whether the atheist should be living with them or not, but what to do about the Holy Water font! I agree with the idea of asking him if he wants one - you might be surprised - he might say, "Why not?"
[/quote]

I do not see him as an alien from another planet, rather an alien in this christian upbringing of the child. I think thats no problem here as the child is so young and this is not a permanent situation, in other words the child will not be exposed to him for a long enough time to get the feeling why do I have to do..... if mom and dads best friend do not. Its an old adage, that you should pray with your kids, not just watch that they pray, as they assume that prayer is just for children, a sad precedence at best.

As for the holy water fonts, sacramentals are meant for use by practising catholics.

ed

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='rhetoricfemme' date='28 January 2010 - 01:47 PM' timestamp='1264700833' post='2046487']
e's only going to be living with us for about a year, and any questions our son might come up with in the mean time can be simply explained by telling him that, "Jeremy is not Catholic like we are, so he doesn't do all the things we do."[color="#FF0000"][b]*[/b][/color]

[color="#FF0000"]*[/color]If anyone has a smarter way to work that to a child between six and 18 months old, I'm open to help.
[/quote]

That sounds like a perfectly acceptable explanation to me. It's along the same lines as what my 6, 4, and 3 year old children know about other religions. They also know that we're the "right" religion. As long as you have those two bases covered I don't think you really need to go much more in depth unless this living arrangement end up going on for much longer than the predicted year or so. There's only just so much an 18 month old is going to understand about differences in religion, kwim? As long as your son is learning about Jesus and Mary and Catholicism I think you're doing very well.

[little_miss_late]

[quote name='rhetoricfemme' date='28 January 2010 - 12:47 PM' timestamp='1264700833' post='2046487']
"Jeremy is not Catholic like we are, so he doesn't do all the things we do."[color="#ff0000"][b]*[/b][/color]
...
[color="#ff0000"]*[/color]If anyone has a smarter way to work that to a child between six and 18 months old, I'm open to help.
[/quote]

Sounds good to me. In my experience, it is much harder to explain a cafeteria Catholic to a young child, than it is to explain that not everyone goes to the same church (or goes to church at all).

Kids are going to say "do I have to" no matter what. Believe me, before the boy is grown, you will say, yes, you have to, and I don't care if (person x) doesn't have to, many many times.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='little_miss_late' date='29 January 2010 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1264738061' post='2047004']
Sounds good to me. In my experience, it is much harder to explain a cafeteria Catholic to a young child, than it is to explain that not everyone goes to the same church (or goes to church at all).

Kids are going to say "do I have to" no matter what. Believe me, before the boy is grown, you will say, yes, you have to, and I don't care if (person x) doesn't have to, many many times.
[/quote]


Oh that is such a good point. With a non-Catholic, it is so much easier to say that they just don't know any better, but with a Catholic it is hard to explain why they can miss Mass or not go to Confession, etc.... good point!

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='little_miss_late' date='29 January 2010 - 12:07 AM' timestamp='1264738061' post='2047004']
Sounds good to me. In my experience, it is much harder to explain a cafeteria Catholic to a young child, than it is to explain that not everyone goes to the same church (or goes to church at all).

Kids are going to say "do I have to" no matter what. Believe me, before the boy is grown, you will say, yes, you have to, and I don't care if (person x) doesn't have to, many many times.
[/quote]

Bingo.

[rhetoricfemme]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='28 January 2010 - 10:41 PM' timestamp='1264736480' post='2046960']
in other words the child will not be exposed to him for a long enough time to get the feeling why do I have to do..... if mom and dads best friend do not. Its an old adage, that you should pray with your kids, not just watch that they pray, as they assume that prayer is just for children, a sad precedence at best.

As for the holy water fonts, sacramentals are meant for use by practising catholics.

ed
[/quote]
I'm not quite sure I understand that first part. I'm not trying to be difficult in my responses to you--I understand that you're coming from a sincere place. But honestly, our children are always going to be surrounded by close and important family members who either aren't Catholic or don't attend church at all. I am the only Catholic in our immediate and extended family, and technically, I'm not even Catholic yet (starting RCIA at this new parish we're starting at after our move). Should our non-Catholic family not be allowed extended visits? Am I supposed to make sure they're gone by Sunday or plan their visits around holy days of obligation? Our family (and obviously the aforementioned friend) are big parts of our life and we love them dearly. As far as, "doing what I have to do." That includes being an active participant in my son's spiritual upbringing. Helping him to learn about Catholicism, helping him to practice it, praying with him (we pray together every day), and so much more.

To be frank, I find it very hurtful to the integrity of my friend--or anyone non-practicing--that you still refer to the concept of my child being, "exposed," to him. It just makes it sound like my friend's day revolves around desensitizing the religious aspects of our home and our son, when it does not. It doesn't matter that he's only a baby with minimal understanding of religion right now. He could be six years old with questions galore and it wouldn't make a difference. Our friend being an atheist does not put him into a default setting designed to deconstruct a child's growing faith. Nor do his day-to-day behaviors, words or activities do that, otherwise he wouldn't be living with us.

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='28 January 2010 - 11:00 PM' timestamp='1264737610' post='2046991']
That sounds like a perfectly acceptable explanation to me. It's along the same lines as what my 6, 4, and 3 year old children know about other religions. They also know that we're the "right" religion. As long as you have those two bases covered I don't think you really need to go much more in depth unless this living arrangement end up going on for much longer than the predicted year or so. There's only just so much an 18 month old is going to understand about differences in religion, kwim? As long as your son is learning about Jesus and Mary and Catholicism I think you're doing very well.
[/quote]
Thank you! It makes me feel better knowing that I'm not under-doing it.

[quote name='little_miss_late' date='28 January 2010 - 11:07 PM' timestamp='1264738061' post='2047004']
Sounds good to me. In my experience, it is much harder to explain a cafeteria Catholic to a young child, than it is to explain that not everyone goes to the same church (or goes to church at all).

Kids are going to say "do I have to" no matter what. Believe me, before the boy is grown, you will say, yes, you have to, and I don't care if (person x) doesn't have to, many many times.
[/quote]
That's a good point. I'm not entirely sure how I'd explain cafeteria Catholics to a child, but I suppose I should work on some answers while I've got a leg up! And I am so so so happy that I don't yet have to use the phrase, "Because I said so!" Lol.

Edited January 29, 2010 by rhetoricfemme

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='rhetoricfemme' date='29 January 2010 - 03:53 PM' timestamp='1264740798' post='2047067']
I'm not quite sure I understand that first part. I'm not trying to be difficult in my responses to you--I understand that you're coming from a sincere place. But honestly, our children are always going to be surrounded by close and important family members who either aren't Catholic or don't attend church at all. I am the only Catholic in our immediate and extended family, and technically, I'm not even Catholic yet (starting RCIA at this new parish we're starting at after our move). Should our non-Catholic family not be allowed extended visits? Am I supposed to make sure they're gone by Sunday or plan their visits around holy days of obligation? Our family (and obviously the aforementioned friend) are big parts of our life and we love them dearly. As far as, "doing what I have to do." That includes being an active participant in my son's spiritual upbringing. Helping him to learn about Catholicism, helping him to practice it, praying with him (we pray together every day), and so much more.

To be frank, I find it very hurtful to the integrity of my friend--or anyone non-practicing--that you still refer to the concept of my child being, "exposed," to him. It just makes it sound like my friend's day revolves around desensitizing the religious aspects of our home and our son, when it does not. It doesn't matter that he's only a baby with minimal understanding of religion right now. He could be six years old with questions galore and it wouldn't make a difference. Our friend being an atheist does not put him into a default setting designed to deconstruct a child's growing faith. Nor do his day-to-day behaviors, words or activities do that, otherwise he wouldn't be living with us.


Thank you! It makes me feel better knowing that I'm not under-doing it.


That's a good point. I'm not entirely sure how I'd explain cafeteria Catholics to a child, but I suppose I should work on some answers while I've got a leg up! And I am so so so happy that I don't yet have to use the phrase, "Because I said so!" Lol.
[/quote]


In St Albert's Rule of Life for the hermits on Mt Carmel, he said common sense is the guide to the virtues. If you just use common sense in this matter, or any other one that comes up, you should be fine. When one starts being elitest in their practice of the faith, it can actually cause more alienation than simple courtesy and charity. God loves all of us and wants all of us to come to him. The atheist of today is hopefully the Catholic of tomorrow and we can do more for them by setting a good example than by isolating outselves from them completely. Now, if he were being beligerent or obstructive about your faith, that would be a different matter, but since he has been a good friend for many years, he no doubt loves your family as you love him, so there is no need to treat him like a pariah, or a leper! St Francis used to kiss the lepers


And remember that St Monica's son St Augustine was a heretic before his conversion, but she didn't push him away, she prayed for him! With God and prayer , all things are possible.

[Ed Normile]

I did not assume you were being difficult to me in any way. I used exposed just as the word is meant to be used, not as in any detrimental meaning. If you are becoming a catholic you seen or felt something about the faith that attracted you to it, it was not just an arbitrary choice you made. If your family were to come over and belittle your beliefs to your child I would assume you would limit their access to the child. A situation where you live with someone, again I assumed this was a more permanent situation, where the child is constantly opened to the views of an atheist, no matter how well intentioned or affable a personality he possesses, may lead to an unwanted acceptance of an anything goes mentality by the child. We learn through our experiences, especially as children, and if a youth were to come to believe that this friends beliefs are as valid as the parent or parents beliefs yet with less confining rules or incoveinences placed upon them the child may choose the path of least resistance. I also assume by the tenor of your posts too me that I have not been at all helpful, in reality I have aggravated you, and this was not my intention. Please allow me to offer you my sincere apologies, I only wish the best for you and yours and was playing the devils advocate to give you food for thought. I hope I was not out of line.

ed

[rhetoricfemme]

[quote name='nunsense' date='29 January 2010 - 12:11 AM' timestamp='1264741864' post='2047078']
In St Albert's Rule of Life for the hermits on Mt Carmel, he said common sense is the guide to the virtues. If you just use common sense in this matter, or any other one that comes up, you should be fine. When one starts being elitest in their practice of the faith, it can actually cause more alienation than simple courtesy and charity. God loves all of us and wants all of us to come to him. The atheist of today is hopefully the Catholic of tomorrow and we can do more for them by setting a good example than by isolating outselves from them completely. Now, if he were being beligerent or obstructive about your faith, that would be a different matter, but since he has been a good friend for many years, he no doubt loves your family as you love him, so there is no need to treat him like a pariah, or a leper! St Francis used to kiss the lepers


And remember that St Monica's son St Augustine was a heretic before his conversion, but she didn't push him away, she prayed for him! With God and prayer , all things are possible.
[/quote]
I will keep this in mind, thank you!

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='29 January 2010 - 12:17 AM' timestamp='1264742233' post='2047085']
I did not assume you were being difficult to me in any way. We learn through our experiences, especially as children, and if a youth were to come to believe that this friends beliefs are as valid as the parent or parents beliefs yet with less confining rules or incoveinences placed upon them the child may choose the path of least resistance. I also assume by the tenor of your posts too me that I have not been at all helpful, in reality I have aggravated you, and this was not my intention. Please allow me to offer you my sincere apologies, I only wish the best for you and yours and was playing the devils advocate to give you food for thought. I hope I was not out of line.

ed
[/quote]
No hard feelings. And on the contrary, your posts have been helpful to me, if for no other reason than for the fact that they helped me understand and remember why I would or wouldn't allow certain elements into our home. While I definitely don't see our friend as detrimental, it would be good to approach my son's exposure to certain elements brought into the home, as well as outside of the home with complete consideration of how it could affect his relationship with God and the Church.

And yes, you did rile me, but that's because I'm easily riled, which isn't your fault. I didn't know you were playing devil's advocate, though. It's true that I need to remember to slow down and think about where others may be coming from. I'll accept your apology if you accept my apology for allowing myself to get snarky toward you, especially when I had a firm idea that while I disagreed with you that I understood your intentions were in the right place.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='rhetoricfemme' date='29 January 2010 - 01:00 AM' timestamp='1264744805' post='2047123']
I will keep this in mind, thank you!


No hard feelings. And on the contrary, your posts have been helpful to me, if for no other reason than for the fact that they helped me understand and remember why I would or wouldn't allow certain elements into our home. While I definitely don't see our friend as detrimental, it would be good to approach my son's exposure to certain elements brought into the home, as well as outside of the home with complete consideration of how it could affect his relationship with God and the Church.

And yes, you did rile me, but that's because I'm easily riled, which isn't your fault. I didn't know you were playing devil's advocate, though. It's true that I need to remember to slow down and think about where others may be coming from. I'll accept your apology if you accept my apology for allowing myself to get snarky toward you, especially when I had a firm idea that while I disagreed with you that I understood your intentions were in the right place.
[/quote]

Ohh, I see being snarky huh? Well thats OK I Guess, lol, I was not upset, rather I hoped I did not upset you, no apology needed, as no offense was taken. I hope we can be friends!

ed