Servus_Mariae Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 [quote name='reyb' date='27 January 2010 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1264628396' post='2045997'] If the Eucharist is true and for real. Why you go hungry and thirsty? Is Jesus a liar? [/quote] 1.) Have you found anything on this earth which perpetually sustains you physically? The manner in which Christ promises to sustain us is not physical primarily (though it does do this as a consequence of His becoming food). His point is that this food is unlike any other which simply nourishes and then passes on. This food sustains us physically and transforms us to our souls. 2.) This notion of "why receive Him more than once because once should be enough" thing...is devoid of love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 I am too lazy to do this right now, but later I will show you some proof that the early Christians not only believed in the Real Presence, but were condemned by the pagans for being cannibals. When Christ said: "My flesh is real food" he MEANT it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 [quote name='reyb' date='27 January 2010 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1264628396' post='2045997'] Again, If the Eucharist is true and for real. Why you go hungry and thirsty? Is Jesus a liar? [/quote] So, for the sake of argument, if the Eucharist is not true and forreal, you can still go hungry and thirsty, even if you believe in Him, are baptized, etc. So is Jesus a liar anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 (edited) Scripture refutes your claims. "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." John 5:53 "After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer walked with him." John 6:66 "Let God be true and every man a liar." Romans 3:4 Amen. Your literalistic ripped out of context interpretation of scripture fails. Edited January 28, 2010 by Brother Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 [quote name='reyb' date='28 January 2010 - 08:39 AM' timestamp='1264628396' post='2045997'] Again, If the Eucharist is true and for real. Why you go hungry and thirsty? Is Jesus a liar? [/quote] It's not physical food we are talking about. We will still hunger and thirst for physical food. It is spiritual food and I don't know about others here, but I no longer hunger or thirst spiritually and as long as I continue to grow in faith and partake of the Eucharist and other Rites I will never hunger or thirst. I am fully sated in the knowledge of Jesus the Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 [quote name='reyb' date='27 January 2010 - 03:32 PM' timestamp='1264627972' post='2045984'] I truly understand what you are saying. But why this ‘I in him and you in me’ which is a covenant needed to be renewed? Or you do not know that it is a covenant. In the following verse which I have already mentioned in the topic starter, in John 6:35-40 ‘[color="#FF0000"][b]… Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty…[/b][/color]’ . If the Eucharist is true and for real why you go hungry and thirsty? Is Jesus a liar? [/quote] Covenant is one of my specialties so I am well aware what one is. Marriage is also a covenant, and we renew that all the time. We became one flesh when we married, but we continue to come together to renew that covenant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 [quote name='Selah' date='27 January 2010 - 04:08 PM' timestamp='1264630081' post='2046025'] I am too lazy to do this right now, but later I will show you some proof that the early Christians not only believed in the Real Presence, but were condemned by the pagans for being cannibals. When Christ said: "My flesh is real food" he MEANT it. [/quote] That is eminently provable based on the earliest defenses of Christian belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted January 28, 2010 Author Share Posted January 28, 2010 I think you (Catholics) do not want to hear the scripture although it speaks clearly. John 6:56-59 speaks with absolute clarity, ‘[color="#FF0000"]Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." [/color] Is the above statement not clear? It is simple and straight. If you eat his flesh and drink his blood, He will remain in you and you in Him and you will live forever. Again, the statement is absolute and definite. It is done. The assurance is already made because ‘you will live forever’. Thus, if the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Jesus Christ Why then you need to do it again? Are you nullifying the words of Jesus? He said ‘you will live forever’ but you are insisting ‘I need your flesh and blood again’ Just like what Apostle Paul said, are we stronger than He?’ Again, if the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Jesus then you must eat it just once and everything is done. Since to do it once more is already an insult to the flesh and blood of Jesus because it seems its power is gone. But that is, if and only if, this Eucharist is the true body and blood of Jesus. So my question is --- Who told you that this Eucharist is the true body and blood of the Son of Man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted January 28, 2010 Author Share Posted January 28, 2010 [quote name='CatherineM' date='27 January 2010 - 09:39 PM' timestamp='1264646381' post='2046158'] Covenant is one of my specialties so I am well aware what one is. Marriage is also a covenant, and we renew that all the time. We became one flesh when we married, but we continue to come together to renew that covenant. [/quote] Do you need to marry your husband again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertwoman Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 Like the other poster said earlier, it is done over and over again because Jesus commanded it to be done in rememberance of him until his return. Catholics and Protestants alike celebrate the Lord's Supper constantly over and over again because it is required of us to do so. 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 [b]23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the [same] night in which he was betrayed took bread: :24And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.[/b] 25After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: [b]this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me. 26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.[/b] 1 Corinthians 11:26-28 [b]26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. 27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.[/b] . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 (edited) [quote name='reyb' date='27 January 2010 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1264627972' post='2045984'] I truly understand what you are saying. But why this 'I in him and you in me' which is a covenant needed to be renewed? Or you do not know that it is a covenant. In the following verse which I have already mentioned in the topic starter, in John 6:35-40 '[color="#ff0000"][b]… Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty…[/b][/color]' . If the Eucharist is true and for real why you go hungry and thirsty? Is Jesus a liar? [/quote] If I brought you into a storeroom, and showed you a lifetime's supply of food, and I told you, "If you come here, you will never be hungry," would you think it was a lie? Would you not agree that simply walking into a storeroom does little, but that you actually have to [i]eat the contents[/i] of the storeroom to derive any benefit from the food? And that you may have to come again and again to fill your weak human body? It's not the food's fault you have to "restore your spirit." It's your fallen human nature's fault. Your fault. It's not a lie for Jesus to have said, "My flesh is true meat, and my blood is true drink." Are you telling me he was talking about "real [i]symbolic [/i]meat?" How do you come up with that? Jesus's talk on this subject was immediately after foreshadowing the feeding of the Church by similar means, in his feeding of the crowds with the loaves and fishes in John 6. The Jews in the synagogue were shocked, and instead of saying, "Whoah, boys. You read me wrong, there. I meant it [i]symbolically," [/i]Jesus didn't try to change their physical understanding of what He was saying. [i] [/i]He drove the point home: 52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?" 53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For [b]my flesh is true food[/b], and [b]my blood is true drink.[/b] 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. 60 Then many of [i][b]his disciples[/b][/i] who were listening said, "[b]This saying is hard; who can accept it?[/b]" 61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "[b]Does this shock you[/b]? 62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. Because Jesus was, in fact, talking about the bizarre reality of his flesh and blood being[i] real food and drink[/i], "many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him." I didn't see any mention of Jesus calling behind them, saying, "Wait! You misunderstood! I was making a metaphor! The "bread and drink" has nothing to do with my [i]real[/i] body, but the "meat" of what I'm saying, you dig?" No, he said, "Does this shock (scandalize) you?" Reyb, I've got some questions for [i]you[/i], now. Where in the Bible (the only source of authority) does it say, "All you have to do is accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior and you are going to heaven, no matter what you do?" Was [i]Paul [/i]a liar when he said, in 1 Corinthians 9:27, "But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps,when I have preached to others, I myself [b][i]should become a castaway[/i][/b]."? Or in Philippians 2:12, when he told them to "work out your salvation in fear and trembling?" Where in the Bible does it say we don't have to [i]do[/i] anything to get to heaven, except believe that Jesus Christ has forgiven us, and accept his salvation? Because Jesus doesn't say it anywhere. He [i]does [/i]say, in Matthew 7:21, "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but [i]he who[/i][b][i] does[/i][/b][i] the will of My Father[/i] in heaven." Where in the Bible does it say that "sin is sin: there is no difference in the gravity of sin?" I see Jesus saying the contrary, in Matthew 7:5, comparing pieces of wood to sins. "You hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of your own eye; and then shall you see clearly to cast out the mote out of your brother's eye." And again in John 19:11: when he said to Pilate, who was sinning by knowingly condemning an innocent man, "He who betrayed me has the [i][b]greater[/b][/i] sin." [font="Arial"] [font="Verdana"][size="2"]No, we don't earn our salvation. But one of the guidelines of accepting Christ's salvation is [i]doing the will[/i] of His Father in heaven. Christ said in Matthew 5:48. [/size][/font][/font][font="Verdana"][size="2"]"Be ye,therefore, perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." How can you [i]be[/i] good without trying to [i]do[/i] good? We are what we do. If we lie, we are liars. If we cheat, we are cheaters. If we do good, we become good. We cannot attain absolute perfection, but that didn't stop Jesus from saying we must try. Why must we try? What's the point of doing anything beyond "accepting Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior" (I see that line getting quoted like scripture, even though it isn't scriptural. It's a "doctrine of man" if I ever saw one.) [/size][/font][size="2"]Why did St. Paul and St. James spend years of their lives talking about the need to not sin? On how to stay away from sin? Avoid sin? To do good? Feed the hungry? Care for orphans and widows? Why didn't they just say, over and over again, what peter said in Acts 2:38? "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Eternal salvation for that little act? Then you can go back to your former way of life, and still go to heaven? Great deal! [/size] Where in the New Testament are any of those things, Reyb? ~Sternhauser Edited January 28, 2010 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted January 28, 2010 Author Share Posted January 28, 2010 [quote name='desertwoman' date='28 January 2010 - 10:00 AM' timestamp='1264690857' post='2046396'] Like the other poster said earlier, it is done over and over again because Jesus commanded it to be done in rememberance of him until his return. Catholics and Protestants alike celebrate the Lord's Supper constantly over and over again because it is required of us to do so. 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 [b]23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the [same] night in which he was betrayed took bread: :24And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.[/b] 25After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: [b]this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me. 26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.[/b] 1 Corinthians 11:26-28 [b]26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. 27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.[/b] [/quote] continue your reading to the next verse 29 It is written '1 Cor 11:29-30 [color="#FF0000"]29 For anyone who eats and drinks without [b]recognizing the body of the Lord[/b] eats and drinks judgment on himself.[/color] Do you 'recognize' the body of Christ? Are you sure that the body of Christ is the Eucharist? (Take note) Because if you failed to recognized the true body of Christ. You are eat and drink judgement on yourself because you are making Jesus a liar as I have explained earlier. I know Catholics eat the 'Eucharist' again and again. Do you think Apostle Paul is doing it? Take note again the words of Apostle Paul, He said '1 Cor 11:26[color="#FF0000"] For whenever [b]you[/b] eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.[/color] Why Apostle Paul used the word 'you' and not 'we' if he is doing it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Therese Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 (edited) I don't mean to be ugly, but you're not going to win with this one, dude. Can you prove that Jesus [i]didn't[/i] intend for us to receive His Body and Blood in the Eucharist more than once? Edited January 28, 2010 by Saint Therese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted January 28, 2010 Author Share Posted January 28, 2010 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='28 January 2010 - 10:23 AM' timestamp='1264692231' post='2046408'] If I brought you into a storeroom, and showed you a lifetime's supply of food, and I told you, "If you come here, you will never be hungry," would you think it was a lie? Would you not agree that simply walking into a storeroom does little, but that you actually have to [i]eat the contents[/i] of the storeroom to derive any benefit from the food? And that you may have to come again and again to fill your weak human body? It's not the food's fault you have to "restore your spirit." It's your fallen human nature's fault. Your fault. It's not a lie for Jesus to have said, "My flesh is true meat, and my blood is true drink." [b][color="#0000FF"] Are you telling me he was talking about "real [i]symbolic [/i]meat?"[/color][/b] How do you come up with that? Jesus's talk on this subject was immediately after foreshadowing the feeding of the Church by similar means, in his feeding of the crowds with the loaves and fishes in John 6. The Jews in the synagogue were shocked, and instead of saying, "Whoah, boys. You read me wrong, there. I meant it [i]symbolically," [/i]Jesus didn't try to change their physical understanding of what He was saying. [i] [/i]He drove the point home: 52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?" 53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For [b]my flesh is true food[/b], and [b]my blood is true drink.[/b] 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. 60 Then many of [i][b]his disciples[/b][/i] who were listening said, "[b]This saying is hard; who can accept it?[/b]" 61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "[b]Does this shock you[/b]? 62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. Because Jesus was, in fact, talking about the bizarre reality of his flesh and blood being[i] real food and drink[/i], "many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him." I didn't see any mention of Jesus calling behind them, saying, "Wait! You misunderstood! I was making a metaphor! The "bread and drink" has nothing to do with my [i]real[/i] body, but the "meat" of what I'm saying, you dig?" No, he said, "Does this shock (scandalize) you?" [/quote] Did I ever say anything you posted above (see bold blue letters)? Or Did I ever say 'Jesus is saying a metaphor’? Please listen carefully and I will post my previous statement. [quote name='reyb' date='28 January 2010 - 02:18 AM' timestamp='1264663096' post='2046302'] I think you (Catholics) do not want to hear the scripture although it speaks clearly. John 6:56-59 speaks with absolute clarity, ‘[color="#FF0000"]Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." [/color] Is the above statement not clear? [b]It is simple and straight[/b]. If you eat his flesh and drink his blood, He will remain in you and you in Him and you will live forever. Again, the statement is absolute and definite. It is done. The assurance is already made because ‘you will live forever’. Thus, if the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Jesus Christ Why then you need to do it again? Are you nullifying the words of Jesus? He said ‘you will live forever’ but you are insisting ‘I need your flesh and blood again’ Just like what Apostle Paul said, are we stronger than He?’ Again, if the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Jesus then you must eat it just once and everything is done. Since to do it once more is already an insult to the flesh and blood of Jesus because it seems its power is gone. But that is, if and only if, this Eucharist is the true body and blood of Jesus. So my question is --- Who told you that this Eucharist is the true body and blood of the Son of Man? [/quote] Again, I said it is [b]simple and straight[/b]. I am telling you (plain and simple too) that the body and blood of Christ is not the Eucharist. You must remember that the bread we are talking is from heaven and not from oven. (Joke only) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 [quote name='reyb' date='28 January 2010 - 01:26 AM' timestamp='1264663560' post='2046303'] Do you need to marry your husband again? [/quote] Spouses don't have to re-marry to renew their covenant with each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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