The Saints And The Culture

[Brother Adam]

I would like to invite Jake Huether for a discussion of Catholic Culture and the saints of the Catholic Church. This would be a discussion with only Jake and I.


Jake?


Moderators?

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 9 2004, 08:33 PM'] I would like to invite Jake Huether for a discussion of Catholic Culture and the saints of the Catholic Church. This would be a discussion with only Jake and I.


Jake?


Moderators? [/quote]
At your service.

[Brother Adam]

We went to mass this past Saturday for Easter vigil. As a result of that, I have two questions for you.

1)Imagine you were sitting next to us in mass, but no one else could hear us and you weren't taking part in this mass. Give me a dialogue of what is going on so I can understand it, as someone who is not familiar with everything that goes on.

2) At the end of the mass someone who knew we obviously were not Catholic handed us a laminated card. Please explain what it means:

"The Lourdes of America"

Rose Petal Blessed by Jesus and Mary on the Sacred Grounds for cure and conversion.

From 1970-1995, Our Lady of the Roses, Mary Help of Mothers and her Divine Son appeared to the late Veronica Lueken, mother of five children, during Rosary Vigils at Bayside, NY. The Vigils continue with Our Lady's promise to remain always on these Sacred Grounds. "The Power from heaven shall be known through the Roses." Our Lady, May 22, 1974

Countless prayers have been answered, many miracles wrought, faith and Hope restored.

For more information write: TLD Ministries.

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 10 2004, 08:39 PM'] We went to mass this past Saturday for Easter vigil. As a result of that, I have two questions for you.

1)Imagine you were sitting next to us in mass, but no one else could hear us and you weren't taking part in this mass. Give me a dialogue of what is going on so I can understand it, as someone who is not familiar with everything that goes on.

2) At the end of the mass someone who knew we obviously were not Catholic handed us a laminated card. Please explain what it means:

"The Lourdes of America"

Rose Petal Blessed by Jesus and Mary on the Sacred Grounds for cure and conversion.

From 1970-1995, Our Lady of the Roses, Mary Help of Mothers and her Divine Son appeared to the late Veronica Lueken, mother of five children, during Rosary Vigils at Bayside, NY. The Vigils continue with Our Lady's promise to remain always on these Sacred Grounds. "The Power from heaven shall be known through the Roses." Our Lady, May 22, 1974

Countless prayers have been answered, many miracles wrought, faith and Hope restored.

For more information write: TLD Ministries. [/quote]
Hey Bro. Happy Easter! Wow, what an eventfull weekend. I'm glad you made it to Mass.

1.) How bout I post my wedding booklet info? It walks through the entire dialogue of the Mass. Then if you would like a more detailed analysis of a particular part, we can go from there.


ENTRANCE RITE

PRIEST: In the name of the FATHER, and of the SON, and of the HOLY SPIRIT.

ALL: Amen.

PRIEST: The grace of our Lord JESUS CHRIST and the love of GOD, and the fellowship of the HOLY SPIRIT be with you all.

ALL: And also with you


(we now prepare ourselves for the reception of the Word, written and in the Flesh. So we all confess our sins generally, and ask for God's forgiveness - from venial sin, which is forgiven in the reception of the Eucharist)


PENITENTIAL RITE

ALL: I confess to Almighty GOD, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do; and I ask the Blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the LORD our GOD.

PRIEST: May Almighty GOD have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting Life.

ALL: Amen.


LORD, HAVE MERCY


PRIEST: Lord, have mercy,

ALL: Lord, have mercy,

PRIEST: Christ, have mercy,

ALL: Christ, have mercy,

PRIEST: Lord, have mercy,

ALL: Lord, have mercy.


OPENING PRAYER


PRIEST: Depends on the day / occasion (this prayer was for Erika and I on our wedding).

ALL: Amen.


LITURGY OF THE WORD

Old Testament (First) Reading

Responsorial Psalms

New Testament (Second) Reading

GOSPEL ACCLAMATION SUNG (Celtic)
1 John 4: 7 (doesn't have to be sung, and I think the acclamation can vary).



CANTOR: Alleluia.

ALL: Alleluia.



PRIEST: “Let us love one another because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God.” (Varies)

ALL: Alleluia.



GOSPEL READING



PRIEST: The Lord be with you.

ALL: And also with you.

PRIEST: A reading from the Holy Gospel according to (depends on which day).

ALL: Glory to you, O Lord. (and at the same time we mark a cross with our thumb on our head, so that the Gospel is in our head; on our lips, so that the Gospel is ever on our lips; and over our heart, so that the Gospel is always in our heart. - you may see some Latinos do some more elaborate type of the same thing).


PRIEST: Reads the Gospel reading.


HOMILY - Priest elaborates on the Gospel. The Priest usually has a speach that draws the readings together and applies them to daily life. I'm not sure what the restrictions are, but they should be focussed on the readings. Although there have been times where the Priest used this time to speak about other important issues effecting our faith / lives (like on 9 / 11 for instance).



PRAYER OF THE FAITHFUL



PRIEST: Now that we have heard God’s word in the Bible and experienced the Lord’s presence in this exchange of vows, let us present these prayerful petitions for people in the world today.


READER: For our Holy Father on earth, the Pope, all the bishops and the clergy everywhere that they may lead us to deeper faith in God and a stronger love for others, let us pray to the Lord.

ALL: Lord, hear our prayer.


Repeated for other prayers.


PRESENTATION OF THE GIFTS of Bread and Wine (which will become the Body and Blood of Christ).

Someone brings them up the isle usually.


LITURGY OF THE EUCHARIST


PRIEST: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the Bread of Life.


ALL: Blessed be God forever.


PRIEST: By the Mystery of this water and wine may we share in the Divinity of Christ, as He humbled Himself to share in our humanity. Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become for us our Spiritual Drink.

ALL: Blessed be God forever.

Priest then washes his hands as a symbol of the cleansing of sin. He says something to the effect of, "Lord wash away our iniquity, cleanse us from our sins."

None of this may be heard if there is music being played. Usually, when there is music, the preist will say this under his breath. If there is no music, like during daily Mass, you can hear the Preist say this.


PRIEST: Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the Almighty Father.

ALL: May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of His name, for our good, and the good of all His Church.


PRAYER OVER THE GIFTS


PRIEST: Lord, accept the gifts we offer you on this happy day. In your Fatherly Love watch over and protect Jacob and Erika whom you have united in marriage. We ask this through Christ our Lord. (Or other appropriate prayer pretty much the same)

ALL: Amen.


PREFACE


PREIST: The Lord be with you.

ALL: And also with you.

PRIEST: Lift up your hearts.

ALL: We lift them up to the Lord.

PRIEST: Let us give thanks and praise.

ALL: It is right to give Him thanks and praise.


PRIEST: Father, all-powerful and ever-living God, we do well always and everywhere to give you thanks through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Through Him you entered into a new covenant with your people. You restored man to grace in the saving mystery of redemption. You gave him a share in the divine life through union with Christ. You made him an heir of Christ’s eternal glory.

This outpouring of Love in the new covenant of grace is symbolized in the marriage covenant that seals the Love of husband and wife and reflects your divine plan of Love. (This part Varies)

And so, with the angels and all the saints in heaven we proclaim your glory and join them in their unending hymn of praise:


ALL: Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of Power and Might. Heaven and earth are full of Your glory. Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the Highest.


The Faithfull then kneel, as the Presence of Christ is brought before us.

EUCHARISTIC PRAYER


PRIEST: Lord, you are holy indeed, the fountain of all holiness. Let your Spirit come upon these gifts to make them holy, so that they may become for us the Body and Blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Before He was given up to death, a death He freely accepted, He took bread and gave You thanks. He broke the bread, gave it to His disciples, and said:

Take this, all of you, and eat it: This is My Body which will be given up for you.

When supper was ended, He took the cup. Again He gave You thanks and praise, gave the cup to His disciples and said:

Take this, all of you, and drink from it: This is the cup of My Blood, the Blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in memory of me.

Let us proclaim the mystery of faith:


ALL: When we eat this Bread Lord, When we drink this Cup, we proclaim your death Lord JESUS, until you come in glory”. (there are a few ways of stating our "mystery of faith", so this may vary a little).


PRIEST: In memory of His death and resurrection, we offer You, Father, this life-giving bread, this saving cup. We thank You for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve you.

May all of us who share in the Body and Blood of Christ be brought together in unity by the Holy Spirit.

Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love, together with John Paul our Pope, Patrick our Bishop, and all the clergy.

Remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again; bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence. Have mercy on us all; make us worthy to share eternal life with Mary, the virgin Mother of God, with the apostles, and with all the saints who have done your will throughout the ages.

May we praise you in union with them, and give you glory through Your Son, Jesus Christ. Through Him, with Him, in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is Yours, Almighty Father, for ever and ever.



ALL: Amen.

Faithfull then stand.


COMMUNION RITE

THE LORD’S PRAYER


ALL: Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name; thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

PRIEST: Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

ALL: For the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory are Yours, now and forever.


SIGN OF PEACE



PRIEST: Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles: I leave you peace, my peace I give you. Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church, and grant us peace and unity of your Kingdom where you live for ever and ever.

ALL: Amen.

PRIEST: The peace of the Lord be with you, always.

ALL: And also with you.

PRIEST: Let us offer each other the sign of peace.


LAMB OF GOD


ALL: Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us. Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us. Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, grant us peace.


PRIEST: This is the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. Happy are we who are called to His supper.


ALL: Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.


COMMUNION


PRAYER AFTER COMMUNION

PRIEST: Almighty God, may the sacrifice we have offered and the eucharist we have shared strengthen the Love of Jacob and Erika, and give us all your Fatherly aid. (obviously varies).

We ask this through Christ our Lord.


ALL: Amen.


CONCLUDING RITES

Final Blessing:

PRIEST: May the Lord Jesus, who was a guest at the wedding in Cana, bless you and your families and friends.

ALL: Amen.


(The Priest may or may not have a prayer here, but he will bless you with the following)

PRIEST: And may Almighty GOD bless you all, the FATHER, and the SON, and the HOLY SPIRIT.


ALL: Amen.


PRIEST: The Mass is ended, go in peace to Love and Serve the Lord.

ALL: Thanks be to God.



So, let me know if there is a prticular part you would like to focus on.




2.) Catholics have "Holy Cards" or "Prayer Cards". So, it might not have been an evangelical tool. I would have liked if someone gave me one too. In fact, I went to confession on Good Friday, and the church I went to they were giving them out for free. I got one with a picture of Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the top it said "By His Cross we are free" or something to that effect. I ended up giving it to a homeless guy. These are cool, cause usually they are wallet sized. You can keep them in your pocket or as a bookmark. When you see them it reminds you of Jesus, Mary, or other saints / angles even. I have a few.

As a side note, however, the card that you have is in remembrance of an apparition of Our Lady which is not formally recognized by the Church. Such apparitions take years and years to recognize, through exhaustive research on the fruits of the events. Even if it were, since these are private revelations they are not a part of the deposit of faith. As such, it is up to our discretion to "believe" them or not.

Nevertheless, it is cool to have a pocket sized pic. of the Mother of God. It will do good to remind you of her.

[Jake Huether]

Good Friday was nice enough to PM me, since this thread was directed at me. But I felt it was important to post the info he sent. Here's the content:



[quote]Hi Jake,

I just wanted to let you know that the apparitions in Bayside, NY have not only not been approved by the Church, but have actually been condemned.  You can read the [url="http://"http://www.ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/MUGABAY.TXT"]Declaration Concerning the "Bayside Movement"[/url] if you'd like, it's from Bishop John Mugavero of Brooklyn from 1986.  According to this declaration, His Excellency consulted with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith prior to issuing this declaration.  As far as I know, the Church's position on the apparitions hasn't changed since then -- and the objection he raised certainly hasn't (namely, that the apparitions insist that an impostor governed the Church in place of Pope Paul VI).

I know you probably just didn't know anything about the apparition, and I didn't either.  But I thought I recalled hearing that it had been condemned, so I did some digging and found that.  I thought I'd send it to you so you could let Bro. Adam know.[/][/quote]


Again, however, it is okay to have an image of Mary to remind you of her. But, indeed, as it would appear here, I don't think devotion to this apparition or it's message is prudent.

Thanks Good Friday.

And I hope to hear from you soon, Bro.

[Brother Adam]

Hi, Actually Dave let me know the day I posted this about the Bayside movement. I'm going to be speaking to the parish secretary about it.

I'm working on how to ask you questions about the mass, but in the meantime:

Who is your favorite saint? Why?

[Jake Huether]

Saint Francis.

Because him and I have so much in common. Well... minus the holiness / perfectness thing. I just feel like I have a connection with him. Especially his relationship with nature. I love animals, and I love nature.

I'm reading this book on him. It's excellent, and I'd recommend it to anyone. It's called, the Little Flowers of Saint Francis. It's like a book of short stories on him.

Interesting note: His stigmata was different than anyone elses. He had the wounds plus the nails. Those who were lucky enough to see / touch his stigmatta said that if they pressed the nail from one side, it would extend out the other side. It was bent on the backside so as not to fall out!

He had such a love for the poor too. And my uncle, was homeless (he passed away 6 years ago). So I have a bit of a connection there also.

My middle name is Francis. My other uncle's name is Francis. My Confirmation name (after him) is Francis. My favorite Priest friend is named Francis.

He's cool.



So, Bro. Who's your favorite Saint?

[Brother Adam]

Please expand on the stigmata.

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 13 2004, 03:31 PM'] Please expand on the stigmata. [/quote]
St. Francis, just like St. Paul, had a real devotion to Christs Passion. St. Francis strove to be like Christ in all that he did. He wanted to live Christ. His Order was actually founded on living the life of the Gospel. And so St. Francis was always prone to severe penances. Fasting and penance was his life - so as to draw nearer to Christ in all that he did.

So, as it was, one day St. Francis was in deep prayer and he begged God for two Graces. One was to be able to suffer as Christ did. Christ Granted these Graces to St. Francis. As he was praying, what appeared to be a Seraph came to him from the sky (later it would be revealed to him that this was actually Christ himself). As it drew near, St. Francis saw that it had the wounds of Christ. When St. Francis "awoke" from this extacy, he himself had the 5 wounds of Christ. On his hands, on his feet, and in his side.


Now the Stigmatta is not just a "show", for with the wounds comes the pain. And St. Francis accepted this humbly. He hid as well as he could the wounds from his fellow Friars. But while they were changing, or when St. Francis would bless someone with his hands, they could tell that he had recieved the Stigmatta of our Lord. And even more, after the death of St. Francis, the Lord willed to send St. Francis to his Friars to console them, and to relieve all doubt that he indeed had suffered as Christ.

St. Francis had the Stigmatta for 2 years before he passed from this life.

He is the very first person to ever have been recorded as having the wounds of Christ. St. Paul might have, depending on how one interprets his words in his writtings.

A predicessor of St. Francis, St. Pio, also recieved the Stigmatta. He suffered it for 50 years almost to the day.

No one recieves the Stigmatta that doesn't wish for it. The Lord grants these special individuals the Grace to suffer as our Lord did. It truly is a Grace to understand just a glimps of what our Lord suffered for us. And in the Mystical Body of Christ, these individuals, like Paul, "complete" what is lacking in the Body of Christ.

This is the foundation of "Indulgences". You see. We really are a Body. "Mystical" doesn't mean symbolic. We really are the Body of Christ. We are a real Body. And although historically Christ's passion, death and resurrection was complete. Historically in space and time our Salvation and the forgiveness of our sins lacks nothing. But mystically, in the Body of Christ, that is His Church, we continue to complete his death and resurrection until Christ comes. If you hammer your thumb on accident, does not your body suffer? Or if your wife gives you a back rub, doesn't your whole body rejoice. So too with the Body of Christ. When just one person commits a sin, the whole Body suffers. When one person takes on suffering, by the Grace of God, other parts of the Body are relieved of it. When I rejoice, even if it may be in suffering, the whole Body rejoices!

And you heard it said that prayers are not lost. If I'm praying for someone who is actually damned, this prayer is not lost. The Good Lord knows who to grant the graces of my prayers. Same too with sufferings / penances within the Body of Christ. St. Francis, in his earthly life, suffered and was purged of his sin above and beyond what purgatory would do. He suffered for himself AND for others. The Holy Martyrs, in their suffering, took on much more than they needed to purge themselves from the stain of sin. But the over abundance of their purgation, their suffering, was not lost. It is stored up in an infinite treasury in heaven. And as the Lord wishes, throught the binding or loosing of His Church, He will grant this storage of Grace to be given to other members of the Body who need it more. This granting, by the Church, of Grace to purge our sins is what is called an indulgence.

In fact one such grant is given this comming Sunday. Here is where the idea of "Body" is truly defined. We are a real Body. We are not of our own. We belong to Christ. And in Christ, we are one. My efforts on earth are not my own, but my Lords. And if He wills that I not recieve a Grace for any one of my works through faith, it is not my place to wish for it. The Graces belong to Christ, and as such they belong to His Body, and in His Body they may be given to me, or they may be given to another member.

[Brother Adam]

Jake you will have to forgive me! I have been called out on two other one on one debates and it is getting overwhelming. This thread is very personally important to me, but until one of the convos ends, I'm afraid I'm going to have to stick to this one on the weekends, to give me time to digest what you say and give you real responses

Hope you understand Bro! You know how woman are

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 14 2004, 07:14 PM'] Jake you will have to forgive me! I have been called out on two other one on one debates and it is getting overwhelming. This thread is very personally important to me, but until one of the convos ends, I'm afraid I'm going to have to stick to this one on the weekends, to give me time to digest what you say and give you real responses

Hope you understand Bro! You know how woman are [/quote]
LOL. No prob at all. Time is all we have.

[Brother Adam]

If the stigmata is true, it seems odd to me that the actually physical nails would appear. This is what I have a really hard time believing, even if the miracle of stigmata could happen.

How does one become a Saint?

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 17 2004, 09:37 AM'] If the stigmata is true, it seems odd to me that the actually physical nails would appear. This is what I have a really hard time believing, even if the miracle of stigmata could happen.

How does one become a Saint? [/quote]
I know. St. Francis is just cool like that. But if you believe that a real wound could appear. Then it isn't that much of a stretch to believe that a nail could appear too. right??

In later years, like during the life of Padre Pio, the medical technology and understanding make it darn near impossible to be mistaken. Padre Pio had the wounds of Christ for 50 years. Had a person had natural wounds, gangreen and all sorts of infections would have killed the person within years. These wounds never healed, nor did they get worse. Modern medicine could not concer. It was a genuine miracle.


I will post some info on the process of Canonization on Monday - when I have the time (since I'm on my mommy's computer right now. LOL)

But in a nutshell,,,

It is a long drawn out process. Normally it takes decades in the very least. In rare circumstances like St. Francis, St. Therese, or St. Pio, it may take a shorter time.

First, through the works of this persons life, a cause is opened for the person. A "cause" simply means that there is reason to believe this person might merrit the chance to become a Saint.

One first becomes a Venerable (you can venerate them LOL). Like Ven. Anne Catherine Emmerich (the nun whose vissions were written down and Mel used for reference in the Passion). I don't believe that a Miracle is necessary to grant this status. Just a holy holy life, where there is little or no doubt that the person has merrited eternal Salvation.

The second step is becoming a Blessed. Now I think they've recently changed the "rules" for the process, but I believe a Miracle must be obtained through the Venerables intercession (when you ask them to pray for a certain thing and the Lord grants your desire through their intercession) in order to make it to this step. There is much research done to make sure that this Miracle has happened for real, not just a prank of the Devil. And the Miracle must have been obtained by the intercession of the Venerable in question.

The final step is Sainthood. Through much prayer and I think another such Miracle (through their intercession), the Pope can canonize a saint. Canonization is simply a declaration that there is no doubt that this person is in Heaven praying for us. A Saint is a Church Triumphant. Now, there are many more Saints in Heaven than we know. The Church only declares the people that she knows for sure are in heaven. And there is no guess work involved. The Lord will make sure that His Church knows that this person is in Heaven.


A note on the Miracles: The miracles must occur after the life of the person. This is an ensurance that God is working with these people even after their death (i.e. after the particular judgment). Because had the person worked a miracle during their life, and then turned their back on God, died and gone to hell, they would obviously not become a Saint. The miracle must obtained through the persons intercession.


We are all saints (little s). But we all hope to be Saints (big S).

[Brother Adam]

So what exactly happens when we die? Do we go through purgatory, and then are judged? Are we judged and then go through purgatory? Do we wait in a big room for a final judgement? Are we not judged at all after death but just go to either heven or hell (or purgatory then heaven)?

Could a person be in the grace of God but then rejected due to lack of works?

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 17 2004, 10:17 AM'] So what exactly happens when we die? Do we go through purgatory, and then are judged? Are we judged and then go through purgatory? Do we wait in a big room for a final judgement? Are we not judged at all after death but just go to either heven or hell (or purgatory then heaven)?

Could a person be in the grace of God but then rejected due to lack of works? [/quote]
Hmmm. It is kind of hard to say for sure. Since you would have to die to find out. LOL.

Logically speaking though. I'd say you would have your particular judgment before you go to purgatory, since all those that make it to purgatory will eventually go to heaven. So, if your in purgatory God would have had to judge you worthy in the first place. Otherwise down the hatch you go to the flames of hell. So... Yes, we are judged first and then go through Purgatory.

Final, general judgment happens at the end of the world. This is where we are judged in front of our brothers and sisters. Our sins and merits are made known to all. Those in heaven and hell will know why those who are in heaven are in heaven and why those in hell are in hell.

A person who is in the grace of God will not go to hell, no matter how little the person had did (as far as works).

But we are judged according to our deeds (as Scripture says), so that one who makes it to heaven having done little will be rewarded little. One having made it to heaven who had done much will be rewarded much. Despite Heaven being infinitly beyond our imaginations, we know that there are degrees of rewards. Just like in hell there are degrees of punishment. A person who had commited all sorts of grievous sins and never thought twice about what God wished would be in much worse shape than a person who had only been out of the grace of God through one such mortal sin.

God is perfect Justice. So we will only get what we deserve.

Hope that makes sense.

Hey Bro. Have a great weekend!