Contraception

[philbo]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='26 January 2010 - 06:30 PM' timestamp='1264527012' post='2044942']
I believe that it's irrelevant.
[/quote]
On the contrary - it's at the very nub of the argument: do you believe that the world can support an ever-increasing population indefinitely, yes or no?


[quote name='Winchester' date='26 January 2010 - 06:30 PM' timestamp='1264527017' post='2044943']
Suggesting that bad outcomes dictate morality is the same argument used to justify eugenics.
[/quote]
What a load of utter tosh. If you're going to paint with that broad a brush, suggesting people change their behaviour to avoid bad outcomes is also used to justify health and safety legislation, driving regulations - basically *any* form of human behaviour.

[Winchester]

[quote name='philbo' date='26 January 2010 - 12:48 PM' timestamp='1264528111' post='2044961']

What a load of utter tosh. If you're going to paint with that broad a brush, suggesting people change their behaviour to avoid bad outcomes is also used to justify health and safety legislation, driving regulations - basically *any* form of human behaviour.
[/quote]
So you're now arguing that legislation and morality are the same thing?

Do you ever refute things or do you just criticise?

[philbo]

[quote name='Winchester' date='26 January 2010 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1264528814' post='2044968']
So you're now arguing that legislation and morality are the same thing?

Do you ever refute things or do you just criticise?
[/quote]
I was offering those up as examples of the ridiculousness of what you were suggesting. I'd call that refutation rather than criticism - if you insist on presenting silly misrepresentations of what I'm saying, I'll stick with ridicule.

[Winchester]

[quote name='philbo' date='26 January 2010 - 01:05 PM' timestamp='1264529125' post='2044971']
I was offering those up as examples of the ridiculousness of what you were suggesting. I'd call that refutation rather than criticism - if you insist on presenting silly misrepresentations of what I'm saying, I'll stick with ridicule.
[/quote]
You can call it what you like, but it isn't a refutation. Your argument can be used to justify eugenics. Really I don't understand your objection. I would think you would want to aid, not hamper, human evolution. Modern medicine is hampering it. The weak are no longer culled. We've done it to domesticated animals, as well.

[Veridicus]

Part of our argument against contraception is based in the concept that life begins at conception. As many of the low-dose or progesterone-based oral contraceptives function primarily by preventing successful implantation rather than through preventing conception/fertilization by anovulatory mechanisms, I recognize them as abortifacients.

[havok579257]

[quote name='philbo' date='26 January 2010 - 10:37 AM' timestamp='1264520252' post='2044899']
What happens when the human population has outstripped the capacity of the planet to feed it?

Like bacteria in a petri dish, and with no more attempt to control population growth than these unthinking bacteria show, humanity is on course to require more resources than the planet can supply. The attitude that "contraception is evil" is hastening this end.
[/quote]


SOYLENT GREEN... IS... PEOPLE!!!

[philbo]

[quote name='Winchester' date='26 January 2010 - 07:18 PM' timestamp='1264529906' post='2044990']
You can call it what you like, but it isn't a refutation. Your argument can be used to justify eugenics. Really I don't understand your objection. I would think you would want to aid, not hamper, human evolution. Modern medicine is hampering it. The weak are no longer culled. We've done it to domesticated animals, as well.
[/quote]
Sorry, I let myself get distracted... And your point is?

That we should continue replicating until it's a lack of ability to produce enough food that kills people off instead?

Because that's where we're going - it's not me who's suggesting eugenics, that's just the paranoid fantasy of someone who won't let himself see where his plans for continuing unrestrained breeding will inevitably lead the planet. And unless the birth rate is controlled, [i]it is inevitable[/i].



[quote name='havok579257' date='26 January 2010 - 07:35 PM' timestamp='1264530938' post='2045014']
SOYLENT GREEN... IS... PEOPLE!!!
[/quote]


..but I would like to point out that in the original book (Make Room! Make Room! by Harry Harrison, a fantastic sci fi author who was probably a major motivating factor in my realizing I was an atheist), Soylent Green isn't people. It's simply that overpopulation is killing the world.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='philbo' date='26 January 2010 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1264547235' post='2045222']
That we should continue replicating until it's a lack of ability to produce enough food that kills people off instead?

Because that's where we're going - it's not me who's suggesting eugenics, that's just the paranoid fantasy of someone who won't let himself see where his plans for continuing unrestrained breeding will inevitably lead the planet. And unless the birth rate is controlled, [i]it is inevitable[/i].
[/quote]

The question of eugenics inevitably enters the arena, not as a paranoid fantasy, but instead as a means of logistics in the necessary enforcement of contraceptive policy by the state. Despite the availability of contraceptives in the US, people still have unintended pregnancies. And even with the cacophony of progressive sentiment seeking to further legitimize abortion, there will always remain women who don't mind having children that they didn't intend to conceive either out of nonchalance or out of religiuos or personal sentiments.

The mere stoic intellectual assent to the idea of contraception is in no manner a sufficient means to ceasing the population spike. No; for an atheist to solve that problem he must turn to contraceptive enforcement by the state; and it is in this that eugenics rears its inevitable and ugly head. Some have made the observation that a disproportionate number of Planned Parenthood's clinics are situated in lower income minority neighborhoods; now while I would desist from speculating about any eugenicist conspiracy, this mere logistical reality could reveal a form of subtle if unintended eugenics.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Veridicus

[havok579257]

[quote name='philbo' date='26 January 2010 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1264547235' post='2045222']
Sorry, I let myself get distracted... And your point is?

That we should continue replicating until it's a lack of ability to produce enough food that kills people off instead?

Because that's where we're going - it's not me who's suggesting eugenics, that's just the paranoid fantasy of someone who won't let himself see where his plans for continuing unrestrained breeding will inevitably lead the planet. And unless the birth rate is controlled, [i]it is inevitable[/i].






..but I would like to point out that in the original book (Make Room! Make Room! by Harry Harrison, a fantastic sci fi author who was probably a major motivating factor in my realizing I was an atheist), Soylent Green isn't people. It's simply that overpopulation is killing the world.
[/quote]


an author of make beliieve books convinced you to be an athiest... that seems.....

[Veridicus]

[quote name='havok579257' date='26 January 2010 - 05:41 PM' timestamp='1264549311' post='2045249']
an author of make beliieve books convinced you to be an athiest... that seems.....
[/quote]

It happens. For example, L. Ron Hubbard convinced many people that Lord Xenu wants to destroy the world with a million hydrogen bombs.

And, btw, using the phrase "make believe books" in an argument with an atheist is really a big mistake begging for the inevitable if uncreative retort "an author of make believe books convinced you to be a theist and believe in god."

Edited January 26, 2010 by Veridicus

[Resurrexi]

I'd rather the earth become overpopulated than anyone offend God by the grave sin of contraception.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='26 January 2010 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1264550196' post='2045259']
I'd rather the earth become overpopulated than anyone offend God by the grave sin of contraception.
[/quote]

While I heartily agree and this is the most concise phrasing, the problem is that an atheist will read this sentence until they see the words "offend God" and then summarily dismiss it .

[philbo]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='27 January 2010 - 12:37 AM' timestamp='1264549039' post='2045245']
The question of eugenics inevitably enters the arena, not as a paranoid fantasy, but instead as a means of logistics in the necessary enforcement of contraceptive policy by the state.[/quote]
I can't believe you people.. so the only two options are a complete lack of contraception leading as quick as is humanly possible to an overpopulated earth.. or state-sponsored eugenics?

You don't like the idea of eugenics, therefore ban contraception and let's hurry up the end of the world as quickly as possible!

Don't you think that it just might be possible to find a middle way in there somewhere?


[quote name='havok579257' date='27 January 2010 - 12:41 AM' timestamp='1264549311' post='2045249']
an author of make beliieve books convinced you to be an athiest... that seems.....
[/quote]
No, I think you'll find that's "atheist". At least I can spell.

And yes, Veridicus is right in that your comment is marvellously ironic. But you should try reading Harry Harrison - he has written some fantastic books.



[quote name='Resurrexi' date='27 January 2010 - 12:56 AM' timestamp='1264550196' post='2045259']
I'd rather the earth become overpopulated than anyone offend God by the grave sin of contraception.
[/quote]
But no, Veridicus is wrong in his assessment in this case: I think it's short-sighted, arrogant and incredibly selfish that you think an overpopulated world is worth it - do you have any conception (pun not intended) of what an overpopulated world would be like? Think of the pictures you see of starving children in Africa, and extend that throughout the whole world.. some places, the US is probably one of those, may be able by force of arms and some naturally fertile regions to be able to hold off for a little bit longer, watching the rest of the world starve while fighting off attempted immigrants.

A bit more contraception will hopefully mean that I won't live to see it; maybe my children will be lucky enough not to. But while there are people like you around, I'm not that hopeful.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='philbo' date='26 January 2010 - 07:22 PM' timestamp='1264551749' post='2045274']
A bit more contraception will hopefully mean that I won't live to see it; maybe my children will be lucky enough not to. But while there are people like you around, I'm not that hopeful.
[/quote]

I hope to have at least seven kids if I get married.

[MIKolbe]

you should hope to get married, first.

srsly.