Ends Justify The Means

[goldenchild17]

I'm purposely going to be as vague as possible with this right now, so just try and go along with it. (if you're insanely bored that is )

Let's say that someone created this amazing product/tool/whatever and that this tool was being used to basically run the entire world. It was basically the greatest invention of all-time. However, the creator of this tool had an evil purpose and intended to, ultimately, use this same tool to, literally, murder every single person in the whole world.

Leaving this tool operational would eventually lead to the murder of every single person in the world. However, destroying it would cripple the world (except for some third-world countries) basically putting the world into a dark ages of sorts. It would most certainly cause (or lead to) the deaths of a great portion of the population as this tool manages healthcare, food, shelter, police/fire/rescue dept.'s, as well as running the schools/universities, science labs etc. Basically just everything in all of the more developed world.

Let's assume (for now), that the only way to prevent the world-wide murders is to destroy the key (which runs the tool), that there is no way to simply turn it off or reprogram it (I haven't thought this part out just yet). Furthermore, the creator of this key is unequivocally committed to dying for his cause, thus there is absolutely no way to convince him to reprogram it himself, and he has already set it to go off at a pre-determined time.

Do you destroy it (and put the world in a type of dark ages which results in the deaths of many millions of people), or let it do its thing and let the world's population disappear.


Now I know the ends don't justify the means, but I am trying to develop this for something and would like to examine the possibilities/holes.

Edited January 24, 2010 by goldenchild17

[AccountDeleted]

This sounds like the plot for a great book/movie etc. You won't get an answer from me because it is too hypothetical with not enough information to make a valid moral judgment (for me), but when you get some answers, you should run off and write this as soon as possible and then let me know and I will buy a copy of the book/go to the movie - I love sci-fi! I do know that the end does NOT justify the means but as I say, there might be several different ways that the means can be implemented that are not morally wrong in themselves.

By the way if you are going to get rid of the Internet (or computers) make sure to let us phatmassers know first so we can get each others snail mail addresses to write! lol

Edited January 24, 2010 by nunsense

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='nunsense' date='24 January 2010 - 02:27 AM' timestamp='1264321655' post='2043336']
This sounds like the plot for a great book/movie etc. You won't get an answer from me because it is too hypothetical with not enough information to make a valid moral judgment (for me), but when you get some answers, you should run off and write this as soon as possible and then let me know and I will buy a copy of the book/go to the movie - I love sci-fi![/quote]

That is kind of why I don't want to get to much into specifics I have a story and there are many other components, but this is kind of the main plot, but I'm just trying to work out this angle of it as the Vatican is going to play a rather central role as well. Kind of like Dan Brown, but in reverse.

[quote]I do know that the end does NOT justify the means but as I say, there might be several different ways that the means can be implemented that are not morally wrong in themselves.[/quote]

Yeah, that's where I'm at. I know this isn't working out as it is, but can't really figure another option without breaking down the plot.


[quote]By the way if you are going to get rid of the Internet (or computers) make sure to let us phatmassers know first so we can get each others snail mail addresses to write! lol
[/quote]

definitely should do that

Edited January 24, 2010 by goldenchild17

[AccountDeleted]

Have you read Father Elijah by Michael D O'Brien? It is apocalyptic Catholic fiction but doesn't cover what you are talking about - it just might get you thinking about things.

I adore Catholic fiction, so get writing right now please! Writers must write! Less time on phatmass and more time writing the book! I'm praying for you.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='nunsense' date='24 January 2010 - 02:55 AM' timestamp='1264323327' post='2043339']
Have you read Father Elijah by Michael D O'Brien? It is apocalyptic Catholic fiction but doesn't cover what you are talking about - it just might get you thinking about things.

I adore Catholic fiction, so get writing right now please! Writers must write! Less time on phatmass and more time writing the book! I'm praying for you.
[/quote]

I have read it and I plan on re-reading it again soon, as well as Eclipse of the Sun. I have a full story, I just am trying to work it out so that it doesn't look like a total rip-off of other ideas, as that isn't the intention.

But as the question of destroying the technology vs. letting it destroy the world is central to the story, I need to try and figure a viable alternative.

Anyways, I guess I didn't need to post this in debate table as there really isn't a debate, because ends don't justify the means, even in this situation. I just need to find another way.

thanks

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='24 January 2010 - 08:07 PM' timestamp='1264324031' post='2043343']
I have read it and I plan on re-reading it again soon, as well as Eclipse of the Sun. I have a full story, I just am trying to work it out so that it doesn't look like a total rip-off of other ideas, as that isn't the intention.

But as the question of destroying the technology vs. letting it destroy the world is central to the story, I need to try and figure a viable alternative.

Anyways, I guess I didn't need to post this in debate table as there really isn't a debate, because ends don't justify the means, even in this situation. I just need to find another way.

thanks
[/quote]


No, no - just wait until everyone wakes up - this could get interesting. It isn't an easy plotline though, so be prepared to work hard.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='nunsense' date='24 January 2010 - 03:16 AM' timestamp='1264324584' post='2043345']
No, no - just wait until everyone wakes up - this could get interesting. It isn't an easy plotline though, so be prepared to work hard.
[/quote]

thanks for the help at this hour (I always get these thoughts while watching late-night cheesy movies on syfy channel). I'll work on it for awhile, but I don't want to ruin it with a corny cop-out, but at the same time I don't want a Dan Brown-type moral compromise.

good night

Edited January 24, 2010 by goldenchild17

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='24 January 2010 - 08:21 PM' timestamp='1264324919' post='2043347']
thanks for the help at this hour (I always get these thoughts while watching late-night cheesy movies on syfy channel). I'll work on it for awhile, but I don't want to ruin it with a corny cop-out, but at the same time I don't want a Dan Brown-type moral compromise.

good night
[/quote]

It's only 8.30pm here in Oz but I am a late bird anyway.

I have been writing a book too so I know the struggles. Do be sure to stop and pray for guidance and to be able to praise God in whatever you do write. The Holy Spirit can inspire us in anything, especially if what we do is not for our own glory, but for His! I will remember you when I pray for my own inspiration! Don't get disheartened, the world needs much more Catholic writing of every kind!

[MIKolbe]

not sure if i am understanding you completely, but the way i read it, one would have to murder the 'inventor guy' in order to get the key to destroy it.

Is that correct?

If so, then no. You cannot do evil so good may come of it.

If the first sentence is wrong, and I have completely misread you, I need another cup of coffee.

[Ed Normile]

Just two thoughts from a man who revels in his ignorance.

First off to assume such a tool exists and was somehow above the plan of God would be a great leap. If this tool were to exist and the man who implemented it, the man who would eventually enact the destruction were to be a reality, something of this magnatude would have to be allowed by our creator, perhaps an end to a means for his final judgement. In the bible it tells of the battle in heaven between satan and his loyalists and St Michael and those angels who follow God. I took from this that God allowed this battle, as He, having created them all could have just shut it down. His reasoning to allow this fracas was above our understanding, perhaps he felt this would weed out those who believed from those angels who felt they had no other option. It follows then, at least to someone who is a few bricks shy a load such as me, that for this tool of unequivocal destruction to exist, then it must somehow fit in with the will of God.
If this were the case than any who would attempt to remove the tool or its creator would be against the very will of God, and as was posted here earlier any form of murder is against his commandments.

The second thought I had was the existence of such a tool being known, whether it would be known by all or learned of through private revelation to a select few, like the magi learning of the intent of herrod wanting to kill the baby king Jesus, it would only truly be stoppable through prayer and conversion of souls asking for intercession allowing for an atmosphere of worship in which God would deem mankind worthy of saving from the destruction. Any person with such destructive power could not rise to that level of control alone, he would have to have followers or minions who would be willing to carry out the carnage if he were to be removed or killed, this being a monumental and overwhelming task would preclude the ability of one person to accomplish it unaided.

Just a few thoughts.

ed

Edited January 24, 2010 by Ed Normile

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='24 January 2010 - 03:09 AM' timestamp='1264320557' post='2043332']
Do you destroy it (and put the world in a type of dark ages which results in the deaths of many millions of people), or let it do its thing and let the world's population disappear.
[/quote]


[url="http://www.ascensionhealth.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=81:principle-of-double-effect&Itemid=171"]The Principle of Double Effect[/url]

~Sternhauser

[Veridicus]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='24 January 2010 - 02:09 AM' timestamp='1264320557' post='2043332']
I'm purposely going to be as vague as possible with this right now, so just try and go along with it. (if you're insanely bored that is )

Let's say that someone created this amazing product/tool/whatever and that this tool was being used to basically run the entire world. It was basically the greatest invention of all-time. However, the creator of this tool had an evil purpose and intended to, ultimately, use this same tool to, literally, murder every single person in the whole world.

Leaving this tool operational would eventually lead to the murder of every single person in the world. However, destroying it would cripple the world (except for some third-world countries) basically putting the world into a dark ages of sorts. It would most certainly cause (or lead to) the deaths of a great portion of the population as this tool manages healthcare, food, shelter, police/fire/rescue dept.'s, as well as running the schools/universities, science labs etc. Basically just everything in all of the more developed world.

Let's assume (for now), that the only way to prevent the world-wide murders is to destroy the key (which runs the tool), that there is no way to simply turn it off or reprogram it (I haven't thought this part out just yet). Furthermore, the creator of this key is unequivocally committed to dying for his cause, thus there is absolutely no way to convince him to reprogram it himself, and he has already set it to go off at a pre-determined time.

Do you destroy it (and put the world in a type of dark ages which results in the deaths of many millions of people), or let it do its thing and let the world's population disappear.


Now I know the ends don't justify the means, but I am trying to develop this for something and would like to examine the possibilities/holes.
[/quote]

If something is truly capable of destroying all human life utterly throughout the world...I am sure it would merit the attention of God. As I doubt God would desire any of us to violate ourselves by committing an evil act (even if supposedly for a positive end), He and He alone would have to provide the solution. Perhaps all we could do is pray.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='MIkolbe' date='24 January 2010 - 07:08 AM' timestamp='1264338493' post='2043374']
not sure if i am understanding you completely, but the way i read it, one would have to murder the 'inventor guy' in order to get the key to destroy it.

Is that correct?

If so, then no. You cannot do evil so good may come of it.

If the first sentence is wrong, and I have completely misread you, I need another cup of coffee.


[/quote]

not necessarily. I probably didn't make myself clear, especially in my attempt to remain vague . The enemy's plan requires that all people currently alive need to die, even himself (a sort of combination of the great flood, and re-creation of Adam and Eve). So killing him won't do any good, he intends to die anyway as it is central to his plan. Which makes this whole thing even more difficult to solve as he has no intentions of cooperating with shutting the plan down, no matter what you threaten him with.

But yes I understand, it would be wrong to murder this one guy, even if it would have prevented this big of an event.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='24 January 2010 - 01:10 PM' timestamp='1264360201' post='2043546']
Just two thoughts from a man who revels in his ignorance.

First off to assume such a tool exists and was somehow above the plan of God would be a great leap. If this tool were to exist and the man who implemented it, the man who would eventually enact the destruction were to be a reality, something of this magnatude would have to be allowed by our creator, perhaps an end to a means for his final judgement. In the bible it tells of the battle in heaven between satan and his loyalists and St Michael and those angels who follow God. I took from this that God allowed this battle, as He, having created them all could have just shut it down. His reasoning to allow this fracas was above our understanding, perhaps he felt this would weed out those who believed from those angels who felt they had no other option. It follows then, at least to someone who is a few bricks shy a load such as me, that for this tool of unequivocal destruction to exist, then it must somehow fit in with the will of God.
If this were the case than any who would attempt to remove the tool or its creator would be against the very will of God, and as was posted here earlier any form of murder is against his commandments.

The second thought I had was the existence of such a tool being known, whether it would be known by all or learned of through private revelation to a select few, like the magi learning of the intent of herrod wanting to kill the baby king Jesus, it would only truly be stoppable through prayer and conversion of souls asking for intercession allowing for an atmosphere of worship in which God would deem mankind worthy of saving from the destruction. Any person with such destructive power could not rise to that level of control alone, he would have to have followers or minions who would be willing to carry out the carnage if he were to be removed or killed, this being a monumental and overwhelming task would preclude the ability of one person to accomplish it unaided.

Just a few thoughts.

ed
[/quote]


Thank you for your thoughts. I am not proposing this as at all possible in any way, shape or form. It is 100% sci-fi (or in more likelihood Fictional science). I have a "purpose" so to speak. There is a particular reason why I have made this outcome necessary, to show that even out of this destruction, God has a bigger plan, that even under this circumstance, He has a solution, no matter if it seems like He wasn't there to prevent it. That God will not circumvent free will, but he will not let man's free will destroy the world.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='24 January 2010 - 01:11 PM' timestamp='1264360319' post='2043550']
[url="http://www.ascensionhealth.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=81:principle-of-double-effect&Itemid=171"]The Principle of Double Effect[/url]

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

yes, I've been thinking about that. thanks