When Does Charity Become Selfish?

[AccountDeleted]

I just think about weird things sometimes.

Ok, charity is a good thing - not charity as in = love but as in doing good for others. But since doing good for others make us feel good too, is it really a selfish thing after all? There is a benefit for the other person, but also a benefit to us in the good feeling. So, does it matter if the motivation is to get the good feeling, or does it have to be a pure motivation - for the good of others?

And what about if we do good for others because we like how it makes others think of us - which is basically vanity, a form of pride?

I can see that we should do good for others even if it doesn't feel good, that's a nice clean virtue, and we probably all do that (doing something we don't want to do because it will benefit someone else) but if the thing we have to do isn't all that hard, and we know that it will make us feel good to help someone else, is there a sin attached to it (not the action, but the motivation)?

Just curious what others think.

Edited January 23, 2010 by nunsense

[Happy_Catholic]

Is there mention in the Bible as to if Jesus felt "good" helping people?

I think there'd be something wrong about someone giving and then not feeling good. I don't think people should give out of an obligation, because there's no charity there.

I get really embarrassed when people know I've done something "good". I don't konw what that is, I don't know if its some internal attempt to avoid the feeling of "pride" or what you're on about nunsense.

I think it becomes a sin when the giver makes a song and dance about it.

I guess the best thing I can explain it as is "everything in moderation". If our response to the good deed done by us is within reason then there's no sin, but if its overt then yeah, probably not right.

Then it comes down to the intention, was the intention of doing the "good" deed to truely help the person or was it so the giver could get a "buzz". I always think of when Jesus was explaining to his Apostles when they saw the rich men put a few bags of gold into the temple gifting plate and then looked all smug about how much money they'd given, but then the old widow put in one dirty penny, but she put more in because that's everything she had!

That old widow knew giving that penny wouldn't make her feel good, it'd make her hungry, perhaps cold, perhaps homeless. For those rich people, it was one less grape on their banquet table. And they could feel good that they got to continue in their wealth while still having the public appreciate their geneorsity.

A modern day equvient, just look at all the famous people giving money to various charities. Bill Gates a few years ago gave a million dollars to a contracpetion programme in Africa. What's a million dollars to a guy who has billions? One less ivory backscratcher! And all these celebs giving money and time to the Haitian people. Sure, the Haitians benefit, but how many of those celebs gave without naming themsleves, or without it being public it was them giving? Now people will go buy their movies and talk about them positively, "Oh, that famous person, he gave 1 million dollars to those poor people!"

[little_miss_late]

If I gave of myself to someone else, expecting that it would result in that good, giving, feeling, and then I don't feel that good feeling, would I be upset? Or would I still feel the same about the good thing I had done?

If I still feel the same about it, then I'm probably OK.

I hope that I am making sense here.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='nunsense' date='23 January 2010 - 12:19 AM' timestamp='1264223958' post='2042678']
I just think about weird things sometimes.

Ok, charity is a good thing - not charity as in = love but as in doing good for others. But since doing good for others make us feel good too, is it really a selfish thing after all? There is a benefit for the other person, but also a benefit to us in the good feeling. So, does it matter if the motivation is to get the good feeling, or does it have to be a pure motivation - for the good of others?

And what about if we do good for others because we like how it makes others think of us - which is basically vanity, a form of pride?

I can see that we should do good for others even if it doesn't feel good, that's a nice clean virtue, and we probably all do that (doing something we don't want to do because it will benefit someone else) but if the thing we have to do isn't all that hard, and we know that it will make us feel good to help someone else, is there a sin attached to it (not the action, but the motivation)?

Just curious what others think.
[/quote]


I'll tell you what I think.

I think that thinking about this too much can lead to scrupulosity and neuroses, which only makes therapists rich.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Happy_Catholic' date='22 January 2010 - 10:01 PM' timestamp='1264226488' post='2042709']

A modern day equvient, just look at all the famous people giving money to various charities. Bill Gates a few years ago gave a million dollars to a contracpetion programme in Africa. What's a million dollars to a guy who has billions? One less ivory backscratcher! And all these celebs giving money and time to the Haitian people. Sure, the Haitians benefit, but how many of those celebs gave without naming themsleves, or without it being public it was them giving? Now people will go buy their movies and talk about them positively, "Oh, that famous person, he gave 1 million dollars to those poor people!"
[/quote]

actually, hes given over 28 billion dollars to charity. which aside from being a lot of money, is probably a larger percentage of his income than most people ever give.

[Winchester]

If I made 1 million, I could easily afford to give 80 percent of my income to charity. Or more.

Percentages at that level of income mean poo.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='24 January 2010 - 04:35 AM' timestamp='1264268146' post='2042876']
I'll tell you what I think.

I think that thinking about this too much can lead to scrupulosity and neuroses, which only makes therapists rich.
[/quote]


Thanks for the laugh

I have actually been told that I am "too deep" and that I need to "lighten up". But I am still curious about motivations. Obviously when we set out to do something, it is usually with the best of intentions, but I think it is possible for these pure intentions to get corrupted along the way, so it is probably a good thing to at least keep an eye out for them, if not to dwell on them, (which does lead to scruples, I agree).


As has been mentioned, sometimes people do something for the notice and attention, and this is obviously wrong, but I was thinking more along the lines of having the right intentions in the beginning, but as we all know "power corrupts..." and things like vanity can also arise when one gets praised for doing a good deed, even if this was meant to be hidden.

Someone mentioned Bill Gates and how a million dollars is nothing to him. So on the one hand we are mocking him for not giving until it hurts, and yet in this same thread it has been said that giving should be done in secret. So if Bill and Melinda have given 100 million in secret and one million in public (I am not saying they have, but let's just say they decided after the first million that they didn't want praise for what they were doing), we judge them on what we know about as if we know the extent of their charity! Seems a trifle inconsistent to me. How do we balance out the good being done by the hiddenness of the deed. Must we assume that everyone is giving as much as they can all the time so that we aren't judging others?

Am I over analyzing here? Yes, perhaps, but do care about this. St John of the Cross says
[i]"... you should never set your eyes on the satisfaction or dissatisfaction of the work at hand as a motive for doing it or failing to do it, but on doing it for God. Thus you must undertake all things, agreeable or disagreeable, for the sole purpose of pleasing God through them." [/i]

So he is talking about not only what we do, but on our motivation for doing it. Sometimes I start something for the purest of intentions, for love of God, and then find that I am actually enjoying doing it, and also enjoying the way that others view me for doing it, and I get a little worried that I have let spiritual pride creep into my pure motivation. But I don't want to stop doing the thing because it is an intrinsically good thing in its own right and benefits others and the original intention was pure. So, at that point I need to find my way back to the original pure motivation of doing it for love of God. It's personal I guess, but I just wondered if others felt the same way?

I certainly don't want anyone to think about this until they need therapy though! It is just an intellectual exercise in a way.


And sometimes the adversary uses things like this to stop us from doing good, so I certainly don't intend to stop doing good because I worry that the motivations are no longer as pure as they were in the beginning.

It is probably just a case of not focussing enough on God all the time!

Edited January 25, 2010 by nunsense

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='23 January 2010 - 12:51 PM' timestamp='1264269100' post='2042879']
actually, hes given over 28 billion dollars to charity. which aside from being a lot of money, is probably a larger percentage of his income than most people ever give.
[/quote]

Actually a few years ago when Bill Gates gave the million dollars it was in response to being publicly shown to have never give anything to charity, despite being the richest man in the world at that time. If he has since given 28 billion dollars to charities since then perhaps he has had an epiphany of sorts.

ed

[Ed Normile]

Another thought, many things we do that are right are meant to feel good to us. Its a base instinct, like any animal if we are rewarded we will perform. If giving makes us feel good we will give more.

ed

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='25 January 2010 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1264392964' post='2043997']
Another thought, many things we do that are right are meant to feel good to us. Its a base instinct, like any animal if we are rewarded we will perform. If giving makes us feel good we will give more.

ed
[/quote]


Actually you remind me that Aquinas talked about this - that we are driven to pleasure by seeking the good. I think I need to read him again to remind myself of this. Thank you for that point.

And I doubt that Bill Gates has had an epiphany, but the point to that was that we admire people who are seen to give and yet the ones we should admire more are those who give but are not seen to do so... tricky one.

[cmotherofpirl]

Ok -say you are going to do something nice for someone else.
If nobody knew about it or ever would, even the person who gets the benefit of whatever it is, would you still do it with the same enthusiasm or would you even do it at all?
Would you still do it even if it benefited them but harmed you in some way?
What are your ground rules for giving?

Thinking this way about something you are going to do, might give yourself some hint as to your actual motivations.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote]
"(But) take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father. When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites[sup] [/sup]do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you. Matthew 6:1-4
[/quote]

Humility in all things

Jim

[Aloysius]

I sometimes wonder about this in regards to some "mission trips" that people go on to exotic places so they can hug orphans or whatever... like, I understand the importance of going and helping the poor in person and all that, but thinking about the cost of travel and such I sometimes wonder if charity to far away places is better in terms of offering your money. is there no one in these places already to do the actual charity work if the funding reached them? would more be able to be done if so much wasn't spent on plane trips and such; how much of those types of trips are about doing it for your own personal experience and what not?

when it comes to local non-exotic stuff done in humility, I don't see it as at all selfish even if you "feel good" about doing it. you should feel good about it, because it's a good thing to do, just don't go around seeking glory and prestige from it. it's the exotic stuff I sometimes question people's motives for...

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='26 January 2010 - 02:29 AM' timestamp='1264433398' post='2044152']
Ok -say you are going to do something nice for someone else.
If nobody knew about it or ever would, even the person who gets the benefit of whatever it is, would you still do it with the same enthusiasm or would you even do it at all?
Would you still do it even if it benefited them but harmed you in some way?
What are your ground rules for giving?

Thinking this way about something you are going to do, might give yourself some hint as to your actual motivations.
[/quote]


Yeah, I think parents do this kind of stuff all the time! Well, the really good ones do.

[add]

Is it assistance to give freely to your own brother; is aid given to your own adult child in a time of need -or- for that matter, can the simple act of giving blood at the local Red Cross an act of charity? NO

It is not charity.
This kind of want and need and giving for family is the essence and measure of our puny, meager, insignificant life on earth.

When my mother passed on last year, she express remorse for excepting our help, she viewed it as being a burden on her children, my brothers and sisters rejoiced in the honor to take care of her in her last days. You might say that she (mom) was to proud to except our help…

It was not pride.
The overwhelming satisfaction I felt in my heart comforted me greatly in the days and weeks after she was gone! I feel blessed, very blessed for the gifts we shared.

to my brothers and sisters, to my children who have grown up moved away, and to all my family; i will gladly give you the shirt off my back, if need be, anytime

Edited January 25, 2010 by apparently