America's Shame

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 February 2010 - 01:20 PM' timestamp='1266513604' post='2058802']
I posted the definition from the Catholic Dictionary of Civil Allegiance just so a reference to Nazis and Communists would not have to be used. Not every government is like that of Nazi Germany, or Communist Russia. These are clearly cases of unjust states, they are not the norm, the mere fact that you a citizen of the Untied States can publicly discredit the Government there of, and not be secretly taken away and shot is proof of that.

You own allegiance to this nation and its government.
[/quote]

So, we will leave the Civil War out of this?

Since, in all of history the United States as been unmarred by any institution it obviously supported in the past.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='18 February 2010 - 12:24 PM' timestamp='1266513858' post='2058804']
So, we will leave the Civil War out of this?

Since, in all of history the United States as been unmarred by any institution it obviously supported in the past.
[/quote]

I make no claims that any human institution is prefect or ever was prefect. The Civil War which happened over one hundred years ago is not an justified reason to reject the authority of the Untied States today.

[goldenchild17]

I missed something. How did ya'll go from the topic of communal guilt/sin to discussing anarchy?

Edited February 18, 2010 by goldenchild17

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 February 2010 - 02:51 PM' timestamp='1266519093' post='2058848']
I make no claims that any human institution is prefect or ever was prefect. The Civil War which happened over one hundred years ago is not an justified reason to reject the authority of the Untied States today.
[/quote]

As if it still does not imply since obviously the United States is still allowing the murder of its children. Ok, if you think that is ok, and that sort of government should be obeyed fine by me, but my morals keep getting in the way otherwise.

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='18 February 2010 - 02:56 PM' timestamp='1266519372' post='2058850']
I missed something. How did ya'll go from the topic of communal guilt/sin to discussing anarchy?
[/quote]

We aren't we are more discussing whether government has legitimate authority or not. Since, Stern and I refuse to be grouped in with the country as a whole for the sins of abortion.

Edited February 18, 2010 by ThePenciledOne

[Socrates]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='18 February 2010 - 01:56 PM' timestamp='1266519372' post='2058850']
I missed something. How did ya'll go from the topic of communal guilt/sin to discussing anarchy?
[/quote]
Because our resident anarchists try to turn threads on [i]every[/i] topic into a thread about anarchism.

Though I disagree with them, they're as entitled to their opinions as much as anyone else; however trying to turn every single thread into a discussion of one's pet cause is very bad form. Sternhauser & co. remind me a lot of this person: "[url="http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/issues.htm"]Issues[/url]."

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='18 February 2010 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1266521242' post='2058863']We aren't we are more discussing whether government has legitimate authority or not. Since, Stern and I refuse to be grouped in with the country as a whole for the sins of abortion.
[/quote]

ok. Well I agree with KoC that gov't (fairly established and not stolen) is the legitimate authority and that this authority does come from God. However I do think they can perverse their authority and when this occurs we no longer (and really should not any longer) submit to them. But I guess I fail to see what that has to do with being grouped in with the country as a whole in regards to the sin of abortion (or any other sin for that matter).

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Socrates' date='18 February 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1266521731' post='2058868']
Because our resident anarchists try to turn threads on [i]every[/i] topic into a thread about anarchism.

[/quote]

It's called thinking outside the box.

[Socrates]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='18 February 2010 - 02:54 PM' timestamp='1266522892' post='2058879']
It's called thinking outside the box.
[/quote]
No, it's called bad manners and being a tedious bore who refuses to think outside one's [i]own[/i] box (in your case, the subject of anarchism).

But I won't derail this thread further; back to the topic of abortion . . .

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='18 February 2010 - 12:24 PM' timestamp='1266513858' post='2058804']
So, we will leave the Civil War out of this?

Since, in all of history the United States as been unmarred by any institution it obviously supported in the past.
[/quote]
[url="http://catholicknight.blogspot.com/2009/02/pope-pius-ix-and-confederacy.html"]Pope Pius IX and the Confederacy[/url]

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Socrates' date='18 February 2010 - 02:35 PM' timestamp='1266521731' post='2058868']
Because our resident anarchists try to turn threads on [i]every[/i] topic into a thread about anarchism.

Though I disagree with them, they're as entitled to their opinions as much as anyone else; however trying to turn every single thread into a discussion of one's pet cause is very bad form. Sternhauser & co. remind me a lot of this person: "[url="http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/issues.htm"]Issues[/url]."
[/quote]

Bravo, sir. Good taste. That's me all over. I'd like to point out that Knight brought up "anarchy." It was neither Penciled nor I.

~Sternhauser

Edited February 19, 2010 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='18 February 2010 - 07:52 PM' timestamp='1266540756' post='2059052']
Bravo, sir. Good taste. That's me all over. I'd like to point out that Knight brought up "anarchy." It was neither Penciled nor I.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Nope, Penciled did so in post 19 of this thread. Stating that his loyalty is to the Church and no other, clearly a reference to anarchy.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 February 2010 - 10:13 PM' timestamp='1266545595' post='2059103']
Nope, Penciled did so in post 19 of this thread. Stating that his loyalty is to the Church and no other, clearly a reference to anarchy.
[/quote]

For the record I am resisting a very patronizing tone here, but what I will say is my goodness!

Assumptions, since you know my philosophy KOC, and can you please re-read your response?

I mean, honestly I think it speaks for itself, but in case not. I think that is all I need in this world anyway.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='18 February 2010 - 02:27 PM' timestamp='1266521242' post='2058863']
As if it still does not imply since obviously the United States is still allowing the murder of its children. Ok, if you think that is ok, and that sort of government should be obeyed fine by me, but my morals keep getting in the way otherwise.

We aren't we are more discussing whether government has legitimate authority or not. Since, Stern and I refuse to be grouped in with the country as a whole for the sins of abortion.
[/quote]


I have not stated that murdering children or allow is ok, and you do know that. That is something the government has very wrong with it, however this does not throw out the legitimate authority it has in enforce moral law, that it does correctly. This nonsense of rejecting the government of the Untied States will go out the window the moment your are arrested, you will use the Constitution to protect your rights. The moment someone harms you or your family or friends you will demand the police and Courts who are part of the US government to do something to bring justice. If we as a nation are ever invaded by a unjust enemy you will except the military part of the government to protect you, your family, your friends and the nations from this invading army.

Edited February 19, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='18 February 2010 - 09:25 PM' timestamp='1266546341' post='2059118']
For the record I am resisting a very patronizing tone here, but what I will say is my goodness!

Assumptions, since you know my philosophy KOC, and can you please re-read your response?

I mean, honestly I think it speaks for itself, but in case not. I think that is all I need in this world anyway.
[/quote]

Perhaps I did assume but when I stated you must by Church order give civil allegiance to the civil authority you rejected it, that gave weight to and proof of my assumption.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 February 2010 - 10:30 PM' timestamp='1266546613' post='2059126']
I have not stated that murdering children or allow is ok, and you do know that. That is something the government has very wrong with it, however this does not throw out the legitimate authority it has in enforce moral law, that it does correctly. This nonsense of rejecting the government of the Untied States will go out the window the moment your are arrested, you will use the Constitution to protect your rights. The moment someone harms you or your family or friends you will demand the police and Courts who are part of the US government to do something to bring justice. If we as a nation are ever invaded by a unjust enemy you will except the military part of the government to protect you, your family, your friends and the nations from this invading army.
[/quote]

Its funny because often I have done that, as far as look to the law to help me in some way, but instead I get kicked in the teeth for various reasons. I play by the rules KOC, since that is the only way that bureaucratic nonsense can function, but even when I do, and even when I follow every intricacy to the [b]T[/b] I still end up getting kicked, because they play with a loophole, so do not lecture or tell me what I will do when such things happen.