What Species Was Adam & Eve?

[Selah]

Thank you. I've just had people on here tell me something was church teaching, and it ended up being based solely on their own opinions.

I have to ask though: why is it important that Adam and Eve were real people? Why can it not be seen as a story, told by the ancients of how the universe came to be, and how they believe sin entered into the world?

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Selah' date='19 January 2010 - 02:19 PM' timestamp='1263928784' post='2040231']
Thank you. I've just had people on here tell me something was church teaching, and it ended up being based solely on their own opinions.

I have to ask though: why is it important that Adam and Eve were real people? Why can it not be seen as a story, told by the ancients of how the universe came to be, and how they believe sin entered into the world?
[/quote]

Paragraph #38 of [i]Humani Generis[/i] offers this:

[indent]
38. Just as in the biological and anthropological sciences, so also in the historical sciences there are those who boldly transgress the limits and safeguards established by the Church. In a particular way must be deplored a certain too free interpretation of the historical books of the Old Testament. Those who favor this system, in order to defend their cause, wrongly refer to the Letter which was sent not long ago to the Archbishop of Paris by the Pontifical Commission on Biblical Studies.[13] This letter, in fact, clearly points out that the first eleven chapters of Genesis, although properly speaking not conforming to the historical method used by the best Greek and Latin writers or by competent authors of our time, do nevertheless pertain to history in a true sense, which however must be further studied and determined by exegetes; the same chapters, (the Letter points out), in simple and metaphorical language adapted to the mentality of a people but little cultured, both state the principal truths which are fundamental for our salvation, and also give a popular description of the origin of the human race and the chosen people. If, however, the ancient sacred writers have taken anything from popular narrations (and this may be conceded), it must never be forgotten that they did so with the help of divine inspiration, through which they were rendered immune from any error in selecting and evaluating those documents.
[/indent]

The citation for the letter mentioned is:

13. January 16, 1948: A.A.S., vol. XL, pp. 45-48.

But I have no idea how to find that. Still, I think the Pope's reasoning is sound enough.

[havok579257]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='19 January 2010 - 01:18 PM' timestamp='1263925113' post='2040197']
As opposed to what? Am I missing something here? Either this is an insulting OP and I'm missing it, or its genuine and people are reading malice into it.

1. It seems like a genuine question from an atheist

B. Its the debate board so opinions in direct opposition are usually found here

iii. Just because a person is an atheist doesn't make them a troll.
[/quote]


Go back and look at all his posts. All his posts just make insult staements about the church being wrong. He never wants to actually debate. He just wants to make a statement about how the church or bible is wrong and then start a new thread with a statement about how the church and bible are wrong... rinse and repeat.

I have no problem with debate. I have problems with people who kept starting new threads just to say they think the church and God are wrong and not actually debating in the threads they start.

All you have to do is go look at his previous posts to see he is just trying to troll. Not to mention some of the threads he is making are not even things to debate about, they are just things to say we are wrong and he is right.

[King's Rook's Pawn]

Some anthropologists talk about an event called the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_modernity#great_leap_forward"]Great Leap Forward[/url]. They say that rather suddenly, about 50,000 years ago, behavioral modernity appeared in humans, tools became much more complex, long-distance trade arose, and art appeared. This is despite the fact that human technological development had been basically static for tens of thousands years prior.

It's pure speculation on my part, but I've wondered if just maybe that wasn't the point that some previously animalistic hominids acquired souls.

[Winchester]

[quote name='DanielNicholas' date='19 January 2010 - 06:51 AM' timestamp='1263901866' post='2040107']
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Humanevolutionchart.png"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Humanevolutionchart.png[/url]

(Please look at the chart)

This is a question Im curious about!

I am going to start with the Homo Neanderthalensis. They came before us (Homo Sapiens), We did not evolve from them though, homo sapiens pursued a seperate evolutionary path.

So, Anyways, the Neanderthals that lived side by side with Homo Sapiens for a short time in Europe.

The Neanderthals had tools, religion, culture, language, even constructed musical instruments. They had a larger cranial capacity, however were slowly out-done by homo sapiens in technological achievements.

First of all, Alot of Catholics on here say religion and science go hand in hand. So does the Catholic church have an official statement regarding to what species Adam and Eve were?

Since the Neanderthals weren't humans - were they animals? So did they not have souls?

What species were Adam and Eve?
[/quote]
Symbolism. Look it up.

[Veridicus]

Maybe the Neanderthals were Nephilim.

In all seriousness tho I haven't read that the Neanderthals were biologically incapable of mating with Cro-Magnan man. It is entirely possible that this argument is wholly superfluous. They may have simply been another form of soul-endowed early human who existed and died out. cultures have come and gone. Genes have come and gone. Neanderthal just represents a larger chunk of genes disappearing...to be human isn't necessarily to be what modern humans define as 'homo sapien sapien'. I don't think its that big of a deal.

[Winchester]

Perhaps they never fell.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Selah' date='19 January 2010 - 01:19 PM' timestamp='1263928784' post='2040231']
Thank you. I've just had people on here tell me something was church teaching, and it ended up being based solely on their own opinions.

I have to ask though: why is it important that Adam and Eve were real people? Why can it not be seen as a story, told by the ancients of how the universe came to be, and how they believe sin entered into the world?
[/quote]

There had to a be a real Adam. Romans 5.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Winchester' date='20 January 2010 - 10:55 AM' timestamp='1264006500' post='2040780']
Perhaps they never fell.
[/quote]

According to Jean M. Auel...

[KnightofChrist]

Adam and Eve were human beings who actually existed. They did indeed live in paradise and fell from grace, Genesis is a true story. It is heresy to believe otherwise.

Edited January 20, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[CatherineM]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='20 January 2010 - 11:28 AM' timestamp='1264008496' post='2040807']
Adam and Eve were human beings who actually existed. They did indeed live in paradise and fell from grace, Genesis is a true story. It is heresy to believe otherwise.
[/quote]
Genesis is truth, but it isn't history or science. I guess I'm a heretic, but I'm in good company since the Pope teaches the same truth.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='mommas_boy' date='19 January 2010 - 02:05 PM' timestamp='1263927940' post='2040219']Yes, of course.

Pope Pius XII, [i]Humani Generis[/i], paragraph #37:

[indent]
When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own.
[/indent]

And the Catechism, paragraph #390:

[indent]
The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.
[/indent]

Please confer with the following article from Catholic Answers, which has imprimatur:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.asp[/quote][quote][url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html"][b]Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God[/b][/url] (2004)
[b]43[/b]. "Every individual human being as well as the whole human community are created in the image of God. In its original unity – of [u]which Adam is the symbol[/u] – the human race is made in the image of the divine Trinity..."

[b]70[/b]. "With respect to the immediate creation of the human soul, Catholic theology affirms that particular actions of God bring about effects that transcend the capacity of created causes acting according to their natures. The appeal to divine causality to account for genuinely causal as distinct from merely explanatory gaps does not insert divine agency to fill in the “gaps” in human scientific understanding (thus giving rise to the so-called "God of the gaps”). The structures of the world can be seen as open to non-disruptive divine action in directly causing events in the world. Catholic theology affirms that that the emergence of the first members of the human species ([b][u]whether as individuals or in populations[/u][/b]) represents an event that is not susceptible of a purely natural explanation and which can appropriately be attributed to divine intervention..."
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_for_the_Doctrine_of_the_Faith"]Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith[/url] - [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI"]Cardinal Ratzinger[/url] (1981-2005) writing to the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Theological_Commission"]International Theological Commission[/url][/quote]It appears that the now [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI"]Pope Benedict XVI[/url] (2005-2010 present) suggested that it is compatible with the Catholic faith to propose that the story of Adam and Eve is mythical, perhaps allegorical. Since the former opinion suggested by the then [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII"]Pope Pius XII[/url] (1939-1958) was not binding on the faithful, it seems that as it was a Catholic’s liberty and freedom to reject the former opinion of [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII"]Pope Pius XII[/url] (1939-1958) then, and it still is now, prehaps even more so.

Moreover with [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Poupard"]Cardinal Paul Poupard[/url] (1985-2007) suggesting to us, "the faithful have the [b]obligation[/b] to listen to that which [u]secular modern science has to offer[/u], just as we ask that knowledge of the faith be taken in consideration as an expert voice in humanity... we also know the dangers of a religion that severs its links with reason and becomes prey to fundamentalism." Catholicism, any religious belief or devotion, can become a fundamentalism. In my personal opinion, fundamentalism is dangerous to both free society and individuals.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Selah]

[quote]Genesis is truth, but it isn't history or science. I guess I'm a heretic, but I'm in good company since the Pope teaches the same truth. [/quote]

^^^ This.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' date='20 January 2010 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1264022189' post='2040989']
It appears that the now Pope Benedict XVI suggested that it is compatible with the Catholic faith to propose that the story of Adam and Eve is mythical, perhaps allegorical.[/quote]

So your saying we could have started out with 4 people, and not 2? I'm not trying to be facetious, but what part of Adam and Eve could be mythical?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='20 January 2010 - 01:18 PM' timestamp='1264011524' post='2040860']
Genesis is truth, but it isn't history or science. I guess I'm a heretic, but I'm in good company since the Pope teaches the same truth.
[/quote]

Did I say it was science? No. Not historical? Not completely non-historical, the fall was an actual event that happened in history, Adam and Eve or our first parents actually existed in the past ie history, they actually lived in paradise, and actually fell from grace. Historical events recorded in Genesis. To say that our first parents, one man and one woman, did not really exist, with the man being created first is heretical, to say they did not actually fall from grace is heretical.

Edited January 20, 2010 by KnightofChrist