Is Purgatory In Eternity

[reyb]

[quote name='mommas_boy' date='25 January 2010 - 10:05 PM' timestamp='1264475105' post='2044617']
Yes, that is correct. Transubstantiation is an article of faith, not of science, because the substance of a thing is discernable to the senses.
[/quote]

Let us start another topic on this issue (The Presence of Jesus Christ on the Eucharist).

[reyb]

But I have a question regarding this offering or sacrifice which (you said) is 'on going and complete' in heaven. If this argument is correct. Why it is written in Luke 22:14-18 that Jesus will not eat it and drink it.....

Luke 22:14-18

[color="#FF0000"]14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, [b]I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God." [/b]

17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you [b]I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." [/b] [/color]
NIV

Edited January 26, 2010 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='mommas_boy' date='21 January 2010 - 11:27 PM' timestamp='1264134471' post='2042032']
No. There is no time in eternity. There is only one sacrifice that never ends. It is both [b]"ongoing and completed" at the same time[/b]. Finished and beginning and in the middle of the sacrifice. It is a sacrifice that simply "is", like if the "Passion of the Christ" movie was paused on the TV screen for all eternity. Actually, that's a bad example. It's more like if the "Passion of the Christ" were sped up really fast, so that you could watch the whole movie in less than a second ... less than a millisecond ... and played over and over again for all time. But even in that example, there is still a distinguishable beginning, middle, and end, and so it is not perfect.
[/quote]

Can you please explain this 'on going and complete' sacrifice you are telling in the light of the scriptures?

[TIWW]

From time to time I come to this forum and read what folks are talking and opining about. I often come away with a huge sense of dread and sadness.
Usually, it stems from the fact that people are so sanctimonious and punctilious, but so missing the big picture. Please do not think I put this forth to argue with anyone or what they "believe," we each have our personal belief system of faith. I once had an assignment is a Spirituality class, to write a 2 page paper on "What does it mean to be Spiritual or what are my Spiritual beliefs? It was one of the most difficult things I ever had to do, to order my thoughts, then put them down on paper in 2 pages. I hightly recommend it . . it taught me a lot about myself and where I had come from in my 60 years of life in my Catholic Faith, and my joureny with God.

As CATHOLICS, we are taught from the very beginning the two great commandments:
Love the Lord your God, with your whole mind, whole heart and whole strength,
And Love your neighbor as yourself.

Coming to this topic from another perspective, as a cradle Catholic, and nurse who has worked with the dying and had an interest in the afterlife for over 30 years, I have not only had many personal experiences, but shared experiences of those who were drifting between this world and the next, I do not think there is such a “place” as purgatory, probably more a “state” of being after death. In the 1950's,growing up in the Catholic school system we were taught all kinds of things, among them the idea of "Purgatory" being a place where one's soul spent time , when it was deemed not ready for "heaven." We were also taught that our Lutheran neighbors were going to "hell." Frankly, that just seemed pure nonsense to me, and I wonder if those who have now converted to the Catholic faith now think that their Lutheran or Methodist friends are doomed to hell.

That philosophy does not bode well for our protestant brethren, and the other of the World’s great Religions, all whose paths lead to God, within their own Cultures. That God would spread His people around the Globe , but only a handful would be specifically chosen, and allowed through the pearly gates, simply flies in the face of reason, not to mention what it says about an All Loving and All Powerful, All Knowing God and His Creation.

When the folks I am with who are dyeing begin to talk to their loved ones who have preceded them in death, I know they have only a couple of days to be bound to this earth, and that soon, they will join their families, friends and the saints who have gone before us, and soon see their Divine Creator, fact to face.
We are created body, mind and Spirit/Soul. ( I’ll not go on about the difference of Soul and Spirit now ) At the time of death we shed our earthly bodies, and the soul and substance of what is US, continues in time and place, but we have access to the world of heaven, the Spirit world, where our angels and other heavenly bodies help us on our journeys. Our soul may need to experience more, to “go to School” to be able to become “ready,” for the Presence of God. One person described it as a psychological loss, and distance, if we have lived a life of selfishness, greed and sin. If we have not lived lives based on the virtues of love, giving and compassion, etc., we must learn love, learn giving and learn compassion, before we approach the “Throne of God.” An example being Hitler, whose life certainly lacked those virtues, and before he would ever look on the face of the Beloved, he may need to spend several eternities, out of sight of the ONE FOR WHOM OUR SOUL YEARNS, before his soul has been transformed. As opposed to Mother Theresa, whose soul was in transformation all throughout her life, and her readiness for the Face of her beloved was entirely different, than that of other more obvious “sinners”
As a faithful Catholic, with a rich and rewarding prayer life and faith community, I can not get caught up with the non essentials. There are many wonderful books out there for those who might be interested, about “life after life.” And actually, that is the title of a book on the subject by Moody. But for me, the book I have found most helpful, informative and reassuring is the book titled Witness from Beyond. by Ruth Mattson Taylor. Her Father, A.D. Mattson, was a Lutheran Pastor and professor in a Midwestern college, who had a heart attack, died and came back to report what life in the Spirit was like for him. I now share this book with families who have lost loved ones, especially children, to help them cope with the loss, but to assure them that, “we do not die,” except to this bodily world.
If you have stayed with this response thus far, I must say that I see no reason to hold on to the Catholic concept of purgatory for myself. But for those who feel that this is somehow important in their belief system, it may serve a purpose. Personally, I believe, as Therese’ said. “IN THE END, WE SHALL BE EXAMINED ON LOVE.”

Only God can judge our soul’s and how well we have lived, We may be the most puffed up and well informed Catholic, following a particular punctilious Rule or Way of life, written by some Saint or Religious figure, wearing some form of clothing that sets us apart, but if we fail in the Great Commandment of LOVE, . . we fail, not only ourselves, but those with whom we live and work, and surely we fail God.

[Nihil Obstat]

Hi TIWW.
As a Catholic I cannot accept the idea that the paths of all religions lead to God. To say so would be indifferentist and deny the basis of our Church.

[kafka]

[quote name='reyb' date='26 January 2010 - 08:07 AM' timestamp='1264511242' post='2044847']
But I have a question regarding this offering or sacrifice which (you said) is 'on going and complete' in heaven. If this argument is correct. Why it is written in Luke 22:14-18 that Jesus will not eat it and drink it.....

Luke 22:14-18

[color="#FF0000"]14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, [b]I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God." [/b]

17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you [b]I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." [/b] [/color]
NIV
[/quote]
Because there is One Consecration of the Eucharist effected by Jesus Christ at the Last Supper for all times and all places. He doesnt consencrate the Eucharist again and again.

[Selah]

Shadow, there is an entire thread dedicated to debunking the idea that the Fathers were Sola Scriptura. How could they be, yet swear their allegiance to the Church?

I'll find the thread for you and show you what I said to Stormstopper, if you wish. I don't want to go off topic, though...so this will be the last time I address it.

Here is the link:

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=98619&hl=Stormstopper&st=0

Happy hunting!

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Selah' date='26 January 2010 - 03:08 PM' timestamp='1264543700' post='2045184']
Shadow, there is an entire thread dedicated to debunking the idea that the Fathers were Sola Scriptura. How could they be, yet swear their allegiance to the Church?

I'll find the thread for you and show you what I said to Stormstopper, if you wish. I don't want to go off topic, though...so this will be the last time I address it.

Here is the link:

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=98619&hl=Stormstopper&st=0

Happy hunting!
[/quote]
+JMJ+
shadow=stormstopper

[Lil Red]

+JMJ+
first welcome to phatmass, if i haven't done that yet.
second, may God bless you for the work you do with the dying. i know that i could not minister to people in such a way. it must be very hard.

i'd like to just talk with you about a few things in your post. you say:
[quote name='TIWW' date='26 January 2010 - 02:55 PM' timestamp='1264542934' post='2045174']
From time to time I come to this forum and read what folks are talking and opining about. I often come away with a huge sense of dread and sadness.
Usually, it stems from the fact that people are so sanctimonious and punctilious, but so missing the big picture. [/quote]
but then you say:
[quote name='TIWW' date='26 January 2010 - 02:55 PM' timestamp='1264542934' post='2045174']
Only God can judge our soul’s and how well we have lived, We may be the most puffed up and well informed Catholic, following a particular punctilious Rule or Way of life, written by some Saint or Religious figure, wearing some form of clothing that sets us apart, but if we fail in the Great Commandment of LOVE, . . we fail, not only ourselves, but those with whom we live and work, and surely we fail God.[/quote]
can you not see the discord between these two statements? you call people here sanctimonious and punctilious but then say only God can judge our souls. well, then, why do you judge us?

[quote name='TIWW' date='26 January 2010 - 02:55 PM' timestamp='1264542934' post='2045174']
Please do not think I put this forth to argue with anyone or what they "believe," we each have our personal belief system of faith.[/quote]
i do not have a personal belief system of faith. I am a Roman Catholic - i hold to the teachings of the Catholic Church, which have been passed onto us from the Apostles themselves, who heard it from Jesus Christ!

[quote name='TIWW' date='26 January 2010 - 02:55 PM' timestamp='1264542934' post='2045174']
Coming to this topic from another perspective, as a cradle Catholic, and nurse who has worked with the dying and had an interest in the afterlife for over 30 years, I have not only had many personal experiences, but shared experiences of those who were drifting between this world and the next, I do not think there is such a “place” as purgatory, probably more a “state” of being after death. In the 1950's,growing up in the Catholic school system we were taught all kinds of things, among them the idea of "Purgatory" being a place where one's soul spent time , when it was deemed not ready for "heaven." We were also taught that our Lutheran neighbors were going to "hell." Frankly, that just seemed pure nonsense to me, and I wonder if those who have now converted to the Catholic faith now think that their Lutheran or Methodist friends are doomed to hell. [/quote]
well, there's quite a few topics packed into this statement. first off, the Oriental churches have an entirely different view about purgatory...Apotheoun? he would be good to ask about this. your other statement about Lutherans going to hell (btw, why are you using quote marks around them? do you not believe in heaven and hell?) brings up the whole thing about salvation outside the church, which i won't get into here because it's a different topic and i'm not that well formed on that subject.

[quote name='TIWW' date='26 January 2010 - 02:55 PM' timestamp='1264542934' post='2045174']
That philosophy does not bode well for our protestant brethren, and the other of the World’s great Religions, all whose paths lead to God, within their own Cultures. That God would spread His people around the Globe , but only a handful would be specifically chosen, and allowed through the pearly gates, simply flies in the face of reason, not to mention what it says about an All Loving and All Powerful, All Knowing God and His Creation. [/quote]
as eagle eye said, i, as a Catholic, reject the idea that all religions lead to God.

[quote name='TIWW' date='26 January 2010 - 02:55 PM' timestamp='1264542934' post='2045174']
As a faithful Catholic, with a rich and rewarding prayer life and faith community, I can not get caught up with the non essentials. [/quote]
i think you disagree with the Church about what are non-essentials.

God bless you.

[Nihil Obstat]

[size="1"]That was me, not Eagle Eye. [/size]

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='TIWW' date='27 January 2010 - 08:55 AM' timestamp='1264542934' post='2045174']
From time to time I come to this forum and read what folks are talking and opining about. I often come away with a huge sense of dread and sadness.
Usually, it stems from the fact that people are so sanctimonious and punctilious, but so missing the big picture. Please do not think I put this forth to argue with anyone or what they "believe," we each have our personal belief system of faith. I once had an assignment is a Spirituality class, to write a 2 page paper on "What does it mean to be Spiritual or what are my Spiritual beliefs? It was one of the most difficult things I ever had to do, to order my thoughts, then put them down on paper in 2 pages. I hightly recommend it . . it taught me a lot about myself and where I had come from in my 60 years of life in my Catholic Faith, and my joureny with God.

As CATHOLICS, we are taught from the very beginning the two great commandments:
Love the Lord your God, with your whole mind, whole heart and whole strength,
And Love your neighbor as yourself.

Coming to this topic from another perspective, as a cradle Catholic, and nurse who has worked with the dying and had an interest in the afterlife for over 30 years, I have not only had many personal experiences, but shared experiences of those who were drifting between this world and the next, I do not think there is such a “place” as purgatory, probably more a “state” of being after death. In the 1950's,growing up in the Catholic school system we were taught all kinds of things, among them the idea of "Purgatory" being a place where one's soul spent time , when it was deemed not ready for "heaven." We were also taught that our Lutheran neighbors were going to "hell." Frankly, that just seemed pure nonsense to me, and I wonder if those who have now converted to the Catholic faith now think that their Lutheran or Methodist friends are doomed to hell.

That philosophy does not bode well for our protestant brethren, and the other of the World’s great Religions, all whose paths lead to God, within their own Cultures. That God would spread His people around the Globe , but only a handful would be specifically chosen, and allowed through the pearly gates, simply flies in the face of reason, not to mention what it says about an All Loving and All Powerful, All Knowing God and His Creation.

When the folks I am with who are dyeing begin to talk to their loved ones who have preceded them in death, I know they have only a couple of days to be bound to this earth, and that soon, they will join their families, friends and the saints who have gone before us, and soon see their Divine Creator, fact to face.
We are created body, mind and Spirit/Soul. ( I’ll not go on about the difference of Soul and Spirit now ) At the time of death we shed our earthly bodies, and the soul and substance of what is US, continues in time and place, but we have access to the world of heaven, the Spirit world, where our angels and other heavenly bodies help us on our journeys. Our soul may need to experience more, to “go to School” to be able to become “ready,” for the Presence of God. One person described it as a psychological loss, and distance, if we have lived a life of selfishness, greed and sin. If we have not lived lives based on the virtues of love, giving and compassion, etc., we must learn love, learn giving and learn compassion, before we approach the “Throne of God.” An example being Hitler, whose life certainly lacked those virtues, and before he would ever look on the face of the Beloved, he may need to spend several eternities, out of sight of the ONE FOR WHOM OUR SOUL YEARNS, before his soul has been transformed. As opposed to Mother Theresa, whose soul was in transformation all throughout her life, and her readiness for the Face of her beloved was entirely different, than that of other more obvious “sinners”
As a faithful Catholic, with a rich and rewarding prayer life and faith community, I can not get caught up with the non essentials. There are many wonderful books out there for those who might be interested, about “life after life.” And actually, that is the title of a book on the subject by Moody. But for me, the book I have found most helpful, informative and reassuring is the book titled Witness from Beyond. by Ruth Mattson Taylor. Her Father, A.D. Mattson, was a Lutheran Pastor and professor in a Midwestern college, who had a heart attack, died and came back to report what life in the Spirit was like for him. I now share this book with families who have lost loved ones, especially children, to help them cope with the loss, but to assure them that, “we do not die,” except to this bodily world.
If you have stayed with this response thus far, I must say that I see no reason to hold on to the Catholic concept of purgatory for myself. But for those who feel that this is somehow important in their belief system, it may serve a purpose. Personally, I believe, as Therese’ said. “IN THE END, WE SHALL BE EXAMINED ON LOVE.”

Only God can judge our soul’s and how well we have lived, We may be the most puffed up and well informed Catholic, following a particular punctilious Rule or Way of life, written by some Saint or Religious figure, wearing some form of clothing that sets us apart, but if we fail in the Great Commandment of LOVE, . . we fail, not only ourselves, but those with whom we live and work, and surely we fail God.
[/quote]


Wow - interesting post TIWW. I think that Lil Red said a lot of what I was thinking, but I would still like to address a couple of points that you made.

First, working with the dying is very rewarding. I was a psych nurse and a geriatric nurse and worked in hospices as well. I have prayed with many a dying person, laid out the dead and even worked briefly in a mortuary preparing the bodies of the deceased for viewing, so I know a little bit about death. I have also had my own personal near death experience. The thing to be careful about here is that although many NDE have similar components, some of them have different ones as well, often related to the beliefs of the person involved.

As for Purgatory, I see this as a great gift given to us by God to help us prepare for eternal life with him. Very few of us die as saints, ready to go straight into His presence. He is holy beyond our comprehension, and we suffer from self-love to an almost unbearable degree most of the time. The purification that we need is like taking a hot shower after a sweaty game - it just makes us a less offensive smelling! And the Dream of Gerontius (beautiful opera by the way) describes the unbearable agony it is for an unpurified soul to be in the presence of such holiness - hence Purgatory.

There are wonderful books that talk about Purgatory as the gift that it is and I would recommend reading them to get over any concerns about it being a bad place. It definitely exists, is a place (but not in our reality or the way we understand it any more than heaven is) and we know this because the Church teaches it.

As for the worry about Lutherans (and others) going to hell . We all have friends and family who are not Catholics. This is where we rely totally on the mercy of God and His infinite love for each one of us. We can trust Him, and leave our loved ones to His care. If we doubt His goodness, we are doubting His very existence.

God knows that we can't understand everything about salvation, so in His wisdom and love, through Jesus, He has given us the Church to guide us. If we start doubting her tenets, then we open the door for the adversary, who wants us to doubt God's love and mercy. I hope that you will try to see the Church teachings for what they are, God's protection. You are in my prayers

Edited January 27, 2010 by nunsense

[Selah]

[quote]shadow=stormstopper [/quote]

I suspected as much.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Shadow of the Almighty' date='25 January 2010 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1264480494' post='2044681']
I think the reason you're wearing sunglasses is because you don't want to admit you are spiritually sleepy. [/quote]
Great. Another spiritual tough guy.

[reyb]

[quote name='kafka' date='26 January 2010 - 05:05 PM' timestamp='1264543528' post='2045182']
Because there is One Consecration of the Eucharist effected by Jesus Christ at the Last Supper for all times and all places. He doesnt consencrate the Eucharist again and again.
[/quote]

Okay. Just for the sake of our discussion, let us consider that this ‘bread and wine’ becomes the true ‘body and blood’ of Jesus and that this ‘act’ is not just for remembering but also a true offering of a true body and blood of Christ which is an offering in heaven ‘on-going and complete’. Why then you need to eat it day after day after day after day and …after day if not in every hour and in everyday.

What I mean is this, it is written in John 6:53-58 that the flesh and blood of the Son of Man is real ‘food and real drink’ and whoever eats 'this' flesh and drinks 'this' blood remains in Him (Jesus) and I (Jesus) in him.’…...and he(whosooever it eat) will not go hungry.

Now, since you said the ‘Eucharist’ becomes the true body and blood of Jesus (and everything you claim about it). Why then you need to eat it again and again and……again? Is your 'first time' not enough if this Eucharist is true and for real?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='26 January 2010 - 05:55 PM' timestamp='1264553750' post='2045316']
[size="1"]That was me, not Eagle Eye. [/size]
[/quote]
+JMJ+
picky.