Is Purgatory In Eternity

[Guest Shadow of the Almighty]

[quote name='nunsense' date='25 January 2010 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1264480458' post='2044679']
If you can misunderstand me here, then how much easier it is for anyone to misunderstand what Jesus said all those years ago in a language that wasn't even the one use to write the scriptures? No, I don't believe that God can speak directly through the scriptures without some kinds of interpretation because even the Jews did this every week at the Temple. They would read the scripture and then explain it. Jesus Himself did this, reading from Isaiah and then pronouncing that He was fulfilling this. So interpretation of the scriptures is not new. After the resurrection, Jesus spent time with his disciples, explaining the scriptures to them. So you contention that the Bible is enough, isn't even held up by the Bible itself which shows Our Lord teaching "from" the scriptures not just handing a book to them to read for themselves.

I just don't happen to believe in your interpretation of them.

And the arrogant comment was simply a response to your post that there is no Purgatory, since that wasn't the question set before everyone on this thread, and yet you told me it was "sad" that I had to ask other Catholics about something that is a Catholic teaching? That statement and the word "sad" just seems a little arrogant on your part still.

As for using the online technology to look up Bible quotes - they still have to be interpreted... and I just don't see things the way you do. For me the Catholic Church is everything she claims to be, hence the truth is not arrogant. She is the one true holy Catholic and apostolic Church. End of story.
[/quote]


As to me budding in with my opinion, you specifically stated in the very first post, QUOTE:

"I am interested in what the Church says about this of course, but also what people think"

I just registered on this site and told you what I thought, thank you very much.

Moreover, absolutely no one denies the ministry of teachers which have been ordained per 1 Cor 12....so there is no argument about the need to learn from others, as I previously indicated that we are all on different levels of learning. I will remind you that Protestants have bombarded the world with their glorious commentaries on the Bible which must number in the thousands, and the Roman Catholic Church has not "officially" produced EVEN ONE!

Furthermore, if it alright for YOU to claim that the Roman Catholic Church is everything she claims to be, it is equally legitimate [i]"for me"[/i] to claim she is not. End of story.

[Vincent Vega]

Wait wait wait...
Misunderstanding of the quote function...
Gratuitous usage of capitalization...and italics...
Using "trendy" slang for Catholic terms, such as "Tranz"...


Can I smell a storm brewing? Or, perhaps more accurately...stopping?

Edited January 26, 2010 by USAirwaysIHS

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Shadow of the Almighty' date='25 January 2010 - 10:48 PM' timestamp='1264481336' post='2044693']
Furthermore, if it alright for YOU to claim that the Roman Catholic Church is everything she claims to be, it is equally legitimate [i]"for me"[/i] to claim she is not. End of story.
[/quote]

I wouldn't say it is alright, but it is your right. This Debate Table could get a lot more interesting.

[Selah]

[quote]Can I smell a storm brewing? Or, perhaps more accurately...stopping? [/quote]

Nah, it can't be Stormstopper. This guy is too calm and polite. (That's a compliment, not an insult! )

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Selah' date='25 January 2010 - 11:56 PM' timestamp='1264481806' post='2044703']
Nah, it can't be Stormstopper. This guy is too calm and polite. (That's a compliment, not an insult! )
[/quote]
We'll see.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='25 January 2010 - 11:53 PM' timestamp='1264481632' post='2044698']
Wait wait wait...
Misunderstanding of the quote function...
Gratuitous usage of capitalization...and italics...
Using "trendy" slang for Catholic terms, such as "Tranz"...


Can I smell a storm brewing? Or, perhaps more accurately...stopping?
[/quote]

You know what, you may be on to something. I do recall Storm making some ridiculous comment about my sweet suns.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='26 January 2010 - 12:04 AM' timestamp='1264482271' post='2044710']
You know what, you may be on to something. I do recall Storm making some ridiculous comment about my sweet suns.
[/quote]
In order to spare the thread, I'll move the inquisition HQ here:
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=102292&pid=2044711&st=0&#entry2044711

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Shadow of the Almighty' date='26 January 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1264481336' post='2044693']
As to me budding in with my opinion, you specifically stated in the very first post, QUOTE:

"I am interested in what the Church says about this of course, but also what people think"

I just registered on this site and told you what I thought, thank you very much.

Moreover, absolutely no one denies the ministry of teachers which have been ordained per 1 Cor 12....so there is no argument about the need to learn from others, as I previously indicated that we are all on different levels of learning. I will remind you that Protestants have bombarded the world with their glorious commentaries on the Bible which must number in the thousands, and the Roman Catholic Church has not "officially" produced EVEN ONE!

Furthermore, if it alright for YOU to claim that the Roman Catholic Church is everything she claims to be, it is equally legitimate [i]"for me"[/i] to claim she is not. End of story.
[/quote]

See, once again you misinterpret what I said, so how can any of your Bible interpretations be relied upon?

When I said that I was interested in what people think, one should be able to assume from the title of the thread and the intro to Catholics especially that what I wanted to hear about was whether or not people think that Purgatory exists within time or in eternity - no time. You interpreted this to mean that I wanted your (incorrect) opinion that Purgatory does not exist. I did not ask this question, but if you want to start another thread debating the existence of Purgatory, I can see where that could be quite lively as well.

If you want to address this thread however, then address the topic - but since you don't believe Purgatory exists, I think that you might want to wait this one out?? Time, no time?? hmmm Tough to answer if it doesn't exist at all. See our problem here?

[Guest Shadow of the Almighty]

[quote name='Selah' date='25 January 2010 - 11:36 PM' timestamp='1264480602' post='2044682']

I find that hard to believe, for she would have never said any such thing about the Eucharist being a "symbol" had she bothered to read the quotes of the Church Fathers, the Didache, and other Apostolic works that clearly indicate that the Church Fathers believed in the Real Presence.



And you are leaning on the shoulders of the Reformers.



Jesus is the Word of God, not the Bible. And, my foundation is not on a book, but on Christ, and the Church he founded when he spoke to St. Peter in Matthew 16:18: You are Peter, and upon this Rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against them.

Your theology is based upon Sola Scriptura, which was never believed by any of the early Christians. My foundation is on the Church, which has been the foundation of the early Christians since 33 AD.



As I am an Eastern Catholic, my views on Purgatory are different. But for the sake of argument, might I ask: do you still sin?
[/quote]


That I might continue to sin is certainly no argument for a place of purification outside of the blood of Christ. I am "in Christ" (a phrase used over 20 times in the N.T.), and because of that, I need not fear a thing as I completely trust in the horizon-filling granduer of His work on the cross ALONE to save me.

I will answer your question once in regard to another topic, but it appears others get annoyed when the subject changes.

Since you like to refer to the early fathers and don't like the idea that your foundation is on a book, I might remind you what Irenaeus said:
He referred to the Scriptures as "the ground and pillar of our faith" (Against Heresies, 3.1.1). So un-Roman Catholic of him, wouldn't you say?

So intimately does God equate Himself with the Scriptures, that they He and them would appear to be virtually indistinguishable. He is even described as using that very name! "For the Scripture saith unto Pharoah, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up..." (Rms 9:17). Jesus in His person, and His word given to us, are two sides of the same coin.

Next, is the charge that "no one" ever believed in SS. On the contrary, everybody did. Every single ECF went out of their way to find their theology in SCRIPTURE ALONE. And I have in my possession, as a matter of fact, every single high and lofty quote the ECF's have made as it regards to Scripture. Now what you will NOT find, are the ECF's looking to the Roman Catholic "three-fold" idea of revelation contained in the Magisterium, Tradition and Scripture. No, not anywhere! Your claims are all nothing but hot air.

I will only respond to your assertion that the Didache was allegedly Roman Catholic in content. We read,

"Assemble on the Lord's day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, `Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations' [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

This document does not include any indication of the Mass as a sacrifice in any way indicative of Roman Catholic teaching. There is not the slightest indication that the elements are transformed into the body of Christ, or that it is a proptitiatory sacrifice that is the fount and apex of what the Catholic Church has determined is an acceptable offering to God. Nothing of this is even alluded to in The Didache. Furthermore, the use of the phrase "so that YOUR sacrifice may be a pure one" seems logically to refer to the Eucharist as the BELIEVER'S sacrifice, reflecting the idea of self-giving through an offering of praise and thanksgiving for the finished work of Christ. This is what the Bible says, like it or not. We offer the "sacrifice of praise" (Heb 13:15), the "sacrifice of Joy" (Ps 27:6), The "sacrifice of thanksgiving" (Ps 116:17) and ourselves as a "living sacrifice" (Rms 12:1). Irenaeus agrees also as I will show below.

Re: the word "sacrifice"; you are not even considering the word in a general or biblical sense, but are demanding it be referring to the Mass! You are trying to squeeze The Didache's quote of Malachi 1:11 like a dishrag to imply a connection to the Mass, but it will never work, biblically or logically. The word used there in my KJV is "offering", and in context, it is being used of a grain or food offering---which was a voluntary act of gratitude and NOT a sacrifice for sin (Lev 6:14-23). The Israelities were offering defiled sacrifices.
Roman Catholics typically the Didache quote of Malachi to imagine that this was a prohecy of the Mass when they read, "From the rising of the sun, even unto the going down of the same, my name shall be great among the Gentiles, and in every place incense shall be offered....." (CCC #2643). Suffice it to say that since the Mass came into vogue centuries ago, Malachi 1:11 is not a prophecy that can be looked at as having been fulfilled in the Mass since the Lord's name is the #1 curse word of choice among Gentiles of today. He must be referring to an event still in the future following the second coming of Christ, at which time His name will indeed be great among "every nation, tribe and tongue" (Rev 5:9). Irenaeus also referred to Malachi's prophecy and characterized the Eucharist as a thank-offering. He maintained that the real sacrifice intended were the prayers of true believers which came from pure hearts undefiled by sin (The Writings of Irenaeus, by Roberts & Donaldson, p. 430, in Against Heresies IV.17.5-6).

[Saecula]

Purgatory would be subject to what Aquinas called "Aeviternity":

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1010.htm#article5

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Saecula' date='26 January 2010 - 04:41 PM' timestamp='1264484494' post='2044763']
Purgatory would be subject to what Aquinas called "Aeviternity":

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1010.htm#article5
[/quote]



Finally back on track again. Yayy Aquinas!

[Lil Red]

+JMJ+
[quote name='Saint Therese' date='18 January 2010 - 07:11 AM' timestamp='1263823885' post='2039615']If I die and find myself in purgatory I'll be like, "YES!! I made it!!!!".[/quote]
me too!

[quote name='reyb' date='19 January 2010 - 05:57 AM' timestamp='1263905843' post='2040122']....but still, there is this element of time. So, how long do you think you will be in purgatory?[/quote]
however long it takes to be purified so that i may enter into God's presence.

[quote name='nunsense' date='19 January 2010 - 06:04 AM' timestamp='1263906256' post='2040125']I asked God if I could do my Purgatory here on Earth. Do you think that was a wise move?? [/quote]
hmmm, good question.

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' date='20 January 2010 - 10:54 AM' timestamp='1264010078' post='2040839']Just remember the 4 final things: Death Judgement Heaven and hell. Purgatory is just a waypoint on the way to Heaven. Do not dwell on it, but rather keep your eyes and heart fixed on the prize - eternal joy with Christ in Heaven.[/quote]
nice.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Shadow of the Almighty' date='25 January 2010 - 08:51 PM' timestamp='1264477877' post='2044649']
If you wish to discuss this issue on another thread, I would be willing to do so, as Tranz is off topic.
[/quote]
+JMJ+
if you want to have a [u][b]civil[/b][/u] dialog, we welcome that. i stress "civil". name calling our beliefs is a great way for you not to be taken seriously. i, for one, will encourage people to ignore you if you persist in being so disrespectful. that is no way to 'win' anyone to your 'side'.

as a moderator, i would call your attention to the phorum guidelines:
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules

God bless, and welcome to phatmass!

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='26 January 2010 - 01:12 AM' timestamp='1264486359' post='2044801']
God bless, and welcome to phatmass!
[/quote]
You say that like he's new.
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=102292&st=0
Read to the end. It's worth your while.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='25 January 2010 - 11:15 PM' timestamp='1264486508' post='2044803']
You say that like he's new.
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=102292&st=0
Read to the end. It's worth your while.
[/quote]
+JMJ+