Is Purgatory In Eternity

[Selah]

A few things, dude:

Do NOT refer to the miracle in the Blessed Sacrament as "Tranz". You are on a Catholic forum, and you will treat our beliefs with respect, regardless of what you believe.

Now then:

[quote]my goooodness gracious" ----The Lord's Supper was never meant to be a sacrifice (!) ---it is a remembrance, just like He said.[/quote]

Your auntie obviously has little to no knowledge of Church history or how the early Christians looked at the Eucharist.

[Guest Shadow of the Almighty]

[quote name='nunsense' date='25 January 2010 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1264475382' post='2044620']
Good, now we know where we both stand. We can proceed [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]

We both believe in Jesus. We both think we are right. So, when you come onto a Catholic forum and post that it is sad that I am asking opinions of other Catholics and Aquinas and Augustine etc, and tell me that everything can be found in the Bible, you don't consider this just a little bit arrogant? So, I poked you with a stick and you jumped. Now you are saying that we are both fallible in our judgments, which is true. I have chosen the Catholic Church and you have chosen to exit (as you put it). We will find out who is right one day, but probably not today. We can debate until the cows come home, and this could be fun, but I am not a very good apologist - we do have wonderful ones here though, so fire away!

Purgatory does not seem to be a concept that you agree with, and since we already see that you are fallible (as am I), I don't see that your opinion is going to really help me personally answer a question about a place that I actually do believe in. If you want to make comments about it, fine, but just throwing quotes from the Bible at me telling me that it isn't so, well, this isn't going to do it since I also hold to the teachings of the Magesterium, and they tell me that Purgatory does exist. Their full house beats your two pair.

But as my brother in the love of Christ, I say pax xti, fratre!

PS All faithful Catholics believe in the teachings of the Magesterium - hence the term "faithful". Those who do not believe, are not... even if they call themselves Catholics... easier than Protestantism.
[/quote]



I don't think one bit less of you because of your assumption that you're not a good apologist. No one knows it all and that's a result of God has not building us like computers. We are to "study to show yourself approved" per 2 Tim 2:15. (Did I know that quote by heart? No. I knew OF it, but I had to pop in the words on my Franklin Electronic Bible, and it told me. Just to let you know that I need help too).
I must say that I find your accusation of "arrogance" a bit out of order. The Roman Catholic Church defines herself as "The Mistress and Mother of ALL churches". Now if that doesn't sound arrogant, I don't know what is. In any case, she is at liberty to say anything she wants. The Catholic Church has come to the point where she feels there is no more discussion. She is the church Christ founded and THAT, as they say is that. On the other hand, I have come to diametrically opposite conclusions, and THAT, as they say is that. When one has studied the issues as I have and concluded thus and such, the uncalled-for "arrogant" claim must be abandoned. I will not use the term if you don't. All I will say in regard to you not being convinced by "throwing out Scriptures", is to caution you to remember that Jesus did that very thing numerous times in far too many places to list here. There IS something to be said for God speaking clearly--plain and simple. You expect your friends to understand what YOU say---why may not God also be expected to be understood in the clarity in His word without an "interpreter" near-by? Jesus expected even the common folk to know the Scriptures and that includes you. So, for example, when I say that the doctrine of purgatory is a travesty on the justice of God and a fabrication that robs Him of His glory, I back that statement up with 1 John 1:7....[i]the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin". [/i]ALL sin. "When Jesus made purification of sins, He SAT DOWN (it was finished per Heb 1:3) and thus, the blood of Christ (believing in His death) is the ONLY cleansing agent for sin. Catholics simply cannot grasp this glorious truth, but instead, like to imagine suffering in a "divine waiting room". We completely reject this.

[Guest Shadow of the Almighty]

[quote name='Selah' date='25 January 2010 - 10:58 PM' timestamp='1264478306' post='2044658']
A few things, dude:

Do NOT refer to the miracle in the Blessed Sacrament as "Tranz". You are on a Catholic forum, and you will treat our beliefs with respect, regardless of what you believe.

Now then:



Your auntie obviously has little to no knowledge of Church history or how the early Christians looked at the Eucharist.
[/quote]


My auntie and I are quite familiar with what the early church said, but the point is that right from the get-go, you are leaning on the shoulders of the early church fathers. If your foundation is not the word of God, but prefer to zip past the Text and go straight to the ECF's, your theology is bound to be suspect. God has elevated His word, even above His name per Psalm 138:2, and if you do not begin with that mindset, you are headed for trouble.

Anyway, I will remind you that the sinner does not need any "fire" to purge away His sins. Jesus instantly and categorically blows the lid off purgatory when He told the repentent thief that "TODAY, thou shalt be with me in paradise". The simplicity of His words should sting you, and run to do further study on the cross-work of Christ.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Shadow of the Almighty' date='26 January 2010 - 03:15 PM' timestamp='1264479359' post='2044672']
I don't think one bit less of you because of your assumption that you're not a good apologist. No one knows it all and that's a result of God has not building us like computers. We are to "study to show yourself approved" per 2 Tim 2:15. (Did I know that quote by heart? No. I knew OF it, but I had to pop in the words on my Franklin Electronic Bible, and it told me. Just to let you know that I need help too).
I must say that I find your accusation of "arrogance" a bit out of order. The Roman Catholic Church defines herself as "The Mistress and Mother of ALL churches". Now if that doesn't sound arrogant, I don't know what is. In any case, she is at liberty to say anything she wants. The Catholic Church has come to the point where she feels there is no more discussion. She is the church Christ founded and THAT, as they say is that. On the other hand, I have come to diametrically opposite conclusions, and THAT, as they say is that. When one has studied the issues as I have and concluded thus and such, the uncalled-for "arrogant" claim must be abandoned. I will not use the term if you don't. All I will say in regard to you not being convinced by "throwing out Scriptures", is to caution you to remember that Jesus did that very thing numerous times in far too many places to list here. There IS something to be said for God speaking clearly--plain and simple. You expect your friends to understand what YOU say---why may not God also be expected to be understood in the clarity in His word without an "interpreter" near-by? Jesus expected even the common folk to know the Scriptures and that includes you. So, for example, when I say that the doctrine of purgatory is a travesty on the justice of God and a fabrication that robs Him of His glory, I back that statement up with 1 John 1:7....[i]the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin". [/i]ALL sin. "When Jesus made purification of sins, He SAT DOWN (it was finished per Heb 1:3) and thus, the blood of Christ (believing in His death) is the ONLY cleansing agent for sin. Catholics simply cannot grasp this glorious truth, but instead, like to imagine suffering in a "divine waiting room". We completely reject this.
[/quote]


If you can misunderstand me here, then how much easier it is for anyone to misunderstand what Jesus said all those years ago in a language that wasn't even the one use to write the scriptures? No, I don't believe that God can speak directly through the scriptures without some kinds of interpretation because even the Jews did this every week at the Temple. They would read the scripture and then explain it. Jesus Himself did this, reading from Isaiah and then pronouncing that He was fulfilling this. So interpretation of the scriptures is not new. After the resurrection, Jesus spent time with his disciples, explaining the scriptures to them. So you contention that the Bible is enough, isn't even held up by the Bible itself which shows Our Lord teaching "from" the scriptures not just handing a book to them to read for themselves.

I just don't happen to believe in your interpretation of them.

And the arrogant comment was simply a response to your post that there is no Purgatory, since that wasn't the question set before everyone on this thread, and yet you told me it was "sad" that I had to ask other Catholics about something that is a Catholic teaching? That statement and the word "sad" just seems a little arrogant on your part still.

As for using the online technology to look up Bible quotes - they still have to be interpreted... and I just don't see things the way you do. For me the Catholic Church is everything she claims to be, hence the truth is not arrogant. She is the one true holy Catholic and apostolic Church. End of story.

[Veridicus]

Start a new thread and debate one issue at a time.

[Guest Shadow of the Almighty]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='25 January 2010 - 10:29 PM' timestamp='1264476593' post='2044632']
Says who? Your subjective opinion, based on a subjective interpretation of the Scriptures - which were put together by the Church, in case you are unaware.
[/quote]



I think the reason you're wearing sunglasses is because you don't want to admit you are spiritually sleepy. Fact is, Catholicism has left 99% of the Bible UN-interpreted, and they have admitted so in quite a few places. Or don't you know this? Thus, my "subjective" interpretation is no better than yours.


BTW, might I ask as to just exactly when it was that your church "put together" the Bible?

[Selah]

[quote]My auntie and I are quite familiar with what the early church said,[/quote]

I find that hard to believe, for she would have never said any such thing about the Eucharist being a "symbol" had she bothered to read the quotes of the Church Fathers, the Didache, and other Apostolic works that clearly indicate that the Church Fathers believed in the Real Presence.

[quote] you are leaning on the shoulders of the early church fathers. [/quote]

And you are leaning on the shoulders of the Reformers.

[quote]If your foundation is not the word of God, but prefer to zip past the Text and go straight to the ECF's, your theology is bound to be suspect[/quote]

Jesus is the Word of God, not the Bible. And, my foundation is not on a book, but on Christ, and the Church he founded when he spoke to St. Peter in Matthew 16:18: You are Peter, and upon this Rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against them.

Your theology is based upon Sola Scriptura, which was never believed by any of the early Christians. My foundation is on the Church, which has been the foundation of the early Christians since 33 AD.

[quote]Anyway, I will remind you that the sinner does not need any "fire" to purge away His sins[/quote]

As I am an Eastern Catholic, my views on Purgatory are different. But for the sake of argument, might I ask: do you still sin?

[Veridicus]

Acts 8:28-31 The Apostle Philip instructs the Eunuch


28 And he was returning, sitting in his chariot and reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 And the Spirit said to Philip: Go near and join yourself to this chariot. 30 And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: 'Do you think that you understand what you read?' 31 He said: 'And how can I, unless some man show me?' And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Shadow of the Almighty' date='25 January 2010 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1264480494' post='2044681']
I think the reason you're wearing sunglasses is because you don't want to admit you are spiritually sleepy.
[/quote]

No, it's because I'm like Cyclops from X-Men.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote]Anyway, I will remind you that the sinner does not need any "fire" to purge away His sins [/quote]

You are misunderstanding the concept of purging (purification) and of Purgatory. You were obviously not properly catechized when you were a Catholic.

[Selah]

[quote]You are misunderstanding the concept of purging (purification) and of Purgatory. You were obviously not properly catechized when you were a Catholic[/quote]

^^^ THIS.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='26 January 2010 - 03:39 PM' timestamp='1264480788' post='2044684']
Acts 8:28-31 The Apostle Philip instructs the Eunuch


28 And he was returning, sitting in his chariot and reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 And the Spirit said to Philip: Go near and join yourself to this chariot. 30 And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: 'Do you think that you understand what you read?' 31 He said: 'And how can I, unless some man show me?' And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
[/quote]

Excellent.... See what a little searching online can do? I know it's all there but can't be bothered to look it up. We do have to credit our Protestant brothers with knowing their chapter and verse! Good to see someone on our side is working hard as well

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='nunsense' date='25 January 2010 - 09:24 PM' timestamp='1264472668' post='2044574']
I am sorry for you that you only have the scriptures to rely on, and not the richness and fullness of the both sacred scriptures and sacred tradition. Everything in the Bible is open to interpretation, and that is why we have a Magesterium to guide us in matters of faith. I don't know how many different variations there are among Protestants, but I see that you are a "reformed prot". I have yet to see any kind of a consensus amongst Protestants regarding interpretation of the Bible, and that is why there is always another sect springing up every day. Without the Magesterium, you are like a ship with no rudder. You may be in the boat and even if you have some idea of where you want to go, you simply can't do it because you end up going around in circles instead.

I respect your right to hold your opinion, but unfortunately you are wrong.
[/quote]
You said this at least one thousand times as charitably as I would/could have, or wanted to.
For this, I give plus one, and in response to the poster, a firm .

Edited January 26, 2010 by USAirwaysIHS

[Veridicus]

[quote name='nunsense' date='25 January 2010 - 10:44 PM' timestamp='1264481070' post='2044689']
Excellent.... See what a little searching online can do? I know it's all there but can't be bothered to look it up. We do have to credit our Protestant brothers with knowing their chapter and verse! Good to see someone on our side is working hard as well
[/quote]

Yes. Precisely. I knew it was Acts 8 and just copy/pasted the relevant text. It is telling to me that the Spirit inspired the Apostle to explain the text rather than simply inspiring the Eunuch to the proper conclusions.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Veridicus

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Shadow of the Almighty' date='25 January 2010 - 11:15 PM' timestamp='1264479359' post='2044672']
I must say that I find your accusation of "arrogance" a bit out of order. The Roman Catholic Church defines herself as "The Mistress and Mother of ALL churches". Now if that doesn't sound arrogant, I don't know what is.
[/quote]
Yeah, like how that Jesus guy was always saying how He was the King of the Jews, and later that He was King of the Universe and all that stuff. He must have been a real arrogant piece of work.