Is Purgatory In Eternity

[kafka]

Purgatory has Time, yet it is a time beyond earthly sort of Time.

Time is simply the seperation into a before and an after.

A soul in Purgatory undergoes a purification or change becoming more like Jesus Christ as well as making up for sins. At one point he is less purified, less Christ-like, and more indebted to sin than a following point, thus there is a true seperation of a before and after in Purgatory, thus a sort of Time. Yet it is closer to Heaven so the time is unlike Earthtime. Moses and the just Israelites did not have to wait literally hundreds of years for Christ to come and release them since Christ's human nature is mystically and irrevocably united to his Divine Nature which is Eternity, hence beyond all Time and Place and able to enter into Purgatory when each soul was ready and purified to meet him.

Heaven is with God who is Eternity. Eternity is beyond Time and Place, thus it is a theological opinion that once assumed into Heaven always in Heaven from its creation or beginning. One doesnt have to for a friend to die in order to be with him in Heaven.

Obviously some of this is speculative theology and not Churh doctrine.

Edited January 19, 2010 by kafka

[Groo the Wanderer]

Keep in mind that Purgatory is not necessarily a place, but more rather a state of being. It is what happens to the soul that still has lingering attachment to sin in some way, such that it is not clean and purified and thus cannot yet enter heaven. Purgatory is where/when/how the soul is cleansed or purgated of that final attachment to worldly things.

Remember also that God created time, so He exists outside of it. Heaven Purgatory hell all have a notion of time, but it is doubtless nothing like our flawed and limited human conception of time. Trying to apply the label of 'time' to the changing of events in any of these is flawed and the analogy, like all analogies, breaks down at some point.

Just remember the 4 final things: Death Judgement Heaven and hell. Purgatory is just a waypoint on the way to Heaven. Do not dwell on it, but rather keep your eyes and heart fixed on the prize - eternal joy with Christ in Heaven.

[scardella]

Purgatory is temporal.

[YMNolan]

[quote name='mommas_boy' date='19 January 2010 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1263928615' post='2040228']
I would reply that the war in heaven is both ongoing and completed at the same time and for all eternity. For, it was Christ's sacrifice that defeated sin and death, and it is Christ's sacrifice which is offered as liturgy (which the liturgy of the Catholic Church imitates) for all eternity in heaven. Heaven is the liturgy which the liturgy of the Church joins with. This liturgy is offered for all eternity. This liturgy is the conquering force in the war.
[/quote]

What a beautiful reply. Thank you!

[reyb]

[quote name='YMNolan' date='20 January 2010 - 02:15 PM' timestamp='1264014923' post='2040902']
What a beautiful reply. Thank you!
[/quote]

Therefore, your sacrifice is a continuing sacrifice. Meaning, it is necessary for an hourly or daily or whatever sacrifices for all eternity. So that these soul in purgatory will win the battle. Is this what you mean?

Edited January 22, 2010 by reyb

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='reyb' date='21 January 2010 - 11:08 PM' timestamp='1264133297' post='2042015']
Therefore, your sacrifice is a continuing sacrifice. Meaning, it is necessary for an hourly or daily or whatever sacrifices for all eternity. So that these soul in purgatory will win the battle. Is this what you mean?
[/quote]

No. There is no time in eternity. There is only one sacrifice that never ends. It is both "ongoing and completed" at the same time. Finished and beginning and in the middle of the sacrifice. It is a sacrifice that simply "is", like if the "Passion of the Christ" movie was paused on the TV screen for all eternity. Actually, that's a bad example. It's more like if the "Passion of the Christ" were sped up really fast, so that you could watch the whole movie in less than a second ... less than a millisecond ... and played over and over again for all time. But even in that example, there is still a distinguishable beginning, middle, and end, and so it is not perfect.

[Nihil Obstat]

Mathematical singularity!!!
[size="5"]Dun dun dunnnnnnn!!!!![/size]

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='21 January 2010 - 11:28 PM' timestamp='1264134520' post='2042034']
Mathematical singularity!!!
[size="5"]Dun dun dunnnnnnn!!!!![/size]
[/quote]

Can God divide by zero?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='mommas_boy' date='21 January 2010 - 10:31 PM' timestamp='1264134677' post='2042037']
Can God divide by zero?
[/quote]
Isn't that pretty much the definition of heaven? A place where you can divide by anything you want......... including zero.



...but seriously though, the weird and bizarre things in the natural world leave plenty of room for me to believe in a great variety of Very Strange Things.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[reyb]

[quote name='mommas_boy' date='21 January 2010 - 11:27 PM' timestamp='1264134471' post='2042032']
No. There is no time in eternity. There is only one sacrifice that never ends. It is both "ongoing and completed" at the same time. Finished and beginning and in the middle of the sacrifice. It is a sacrifice that simply "is", like if the "Passion of the Christ" movie was paused on the TV screen for all eternity. Actually, that's a bad example. It's more like if the "Passion of the Christ" were sped up really fast, so that you could watch the whole movie in less than a second ... less than a millisecond ... and played over and over again for all time. But even in that example, there is still a distinguishable beginning, middle, and end, and so it is not perfect.
[/quote]

So what do you mean by 'on going and completed' at the same time?

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='reyb' date='22 January 2010 - 03:55 AM' timestamp='1264150539' post='2042162']
So what do you mean by 'on going and completed' at the same time?
[/quote]

Precisely what it says. The [b]entire[/b] sacrifice of Christ is present "at all time" in heaven. So, the nails are being driven into his body at the same time that he is being lifted upright on the cross, at the same time that he is forgiving the good thief, at the same time that he dies. There is no beginning, then middle, then end. There is only the sacrifice, all of it happens in heaven at the same time.

Further, it's not as though the same sacrifice is "repeated" over and over (like watching a reply tape over and over), because that would require a loop of beginning, then middle, then end. The sacrifice simply "is" in heaven.

[reyb]

[quote name='mommas_boy' date='22 January 2010 - 05:45 PM' timestamp='1264200316' post='2042428']
Precisely what it says. The [b]entire[/b] sacrifice of Christ is present "at all time" in heaven. So, the nails are being driven into his body at the same time that he is being lifted upright on the cross, at the same time that he is forgiving the good thief, at the same time that he dies. There is no beginning, then middle, then end. There is only the sacrifice, all of it happens in heaven at the same time.

Further, it's not as though the same sacrifice is "repeated" over and over (like watching a reply tape over and over), because that would require a loop of beginning, then middle, then end. The sacrifice simply "is" in heaven.
[/quote]

If that is the case, that this sacrifice 'is in heaven and at all time', what is the sense of the 'Eucharist' in every mass?

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='reyb' date='22 January 2010 - 06:40 PM' timestamp='1264203612' post='2042471']
If that is the case, that this sacrifice 'is in heaven and at all time', what is the sense of the 'Eucharist' in every mass?
[/quote]

Am I to understand your "what is the sense" to mean "why do it if Christ's one sacrifice is sufficient"? Because Christ commanded it: "Do this in memory of me."

Or am I to understand it to mean, "I am having trouble making sense of this"? Catholics don't see the sacrifice of the Mass as re-doing Christ's one sacrifice, but rather as a re-presentation (that is, presenting the one sacrifice again). The following Saints say it much better than I:

[b][u]St. Ignatius of Antioch[/u][/b]
"Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice—even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God" (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).

[b][u]St. John Chrysostom[/u][/b]
"When you see the Lord immolated and lying upon the altar, and the priest bent over that sacrifice praying, and all the people empurpled by that precious blood, can you think that you are still among men and on earth? Or are you not lifted up to heaven?" (The Priesthood 3:4:177 [A.D. 387]).

"What then? Do we not offer daily? Yes, we offer, but making remembrance of his death; and this remembrance is one and not many. How is it one and not many? Because this sacrifice is offered once, like that in the Holy of Holies. This sacrifice is a type of that, and this remembrance a type of that. We offer always the same, not one sheep now and another tomorrow, but the same thing always. Thus there is one sacrifice. By this reasoning, since the sacrifice is offered everywhere, are there, then, a multiplicity of Christs? By no means! Christ is one everywhere. He is complete here, complete there, one body. And just as he is one body and not many though offered everywhere, so too is there one sacrifice" (Homilies on Hebrews 17:3(6) [A.D. 403]).

Edited January 23, 2010 by mommas_boy

[reyb]

[quote name='mommas_boy' date='23 January 2010 - 02:03 AM' timestamp='1264230234' post='2042755']
Am I to understand your "what is the sense" to mean "why do it if Christ's one sacrifice is sufficient"? Because Christ commanded it: "Do this in memory of me."

Or am I to understand it to mean, "I am having trouble making sense of this"? Catholics don't see the sacrifice of the Mass as re-doing Christ's one sacrifice, but rather as a re-presentation (that is, presenting the one sacrifice again). The following Saints say it much better than I:

[b][u]St. Ignatius of Antioch[/u][/b]
"Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice—even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God" (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).

[b][u]St. John Chrysostom[/u][/b]
"When you see the Lord immolated and lying upon the altar, and the priest bent over that sacrifice praying, and all the people empurpled by that precious blood, can you think that you are still among men and on earth? Or are you not lifted up to heaven?" (The Priesthood 3:4:177 [A.D. 387]).

"What then? Do we not offer daily? Yes, we offer, but making remembrance of his death; and this remembrance is one and not many. How is it one and not many? Because this sacrifice is offered once, like that in the Holy of Holies. This sacrifice is a type of that, and this remembrance a type of that. We offer always the same, not one sheep now and another tomorrow, but the same thing always. Thus there is one sacrifice. By this reasoning, since the sacrifice is offered everywhere, are there, then, a multiplicity of Christs? By no means! Christ is one everywhere. He is complete here, complete there, one body. And just as he is one body and not many though offered everywhere, so too is there one sacrifice" (Homilies on Hebrews 17:3(6) [A.D. 403]).
[/quote]

Yes, this is what I am saying

[quote]
Am I to understand your "what is the sense" to mean "why do it if Christ's one sacrifice is sufficient"? Because Christ commanded it: "Do this in memory of me."[/quote]

So may question is in what way 'This bread' (in the Eucharist) becomes 'Body of Christ'.

Since you said the Eucharist is a type of a 'sacrifice offered once' and you are referring to the 'Death of Jesus' on the Cross. If I get you correctly, you are saying 'it is remembrance but this remembrance is not just for the sake of 'remembering' but an 'offering the true body of Christ'. Again my question is in what way 'This bread' become the 'body of Christ' in its real sense.

Edited January 23, 2010 by reyb

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='reyb' date='23 January 2010 - 05:15 AM' timestamp='1264241722' post='2042777']
Yes, this is what I am saying



So may question is in what way 'This bread' (in the Eucharist) becomes 'Body of Christ'.

Since you said the Eucharist is a type of a 'sacrifice offered once' and you are referring to the 'Death of Jesus' on the Cross. If I get you correctly, you are saying 'it is remembrance but this remembrance is not just for the sake of 'remembering' but an 'offering the true body of Christ'. Again my question is in what way 'This bread' become the 'body of Christ' in its real sense.
[/quote]

Hey reyb.

I am moving today, and will be unable to provide you with a sufficient response for at least today, if not for a couple of days as I unpack. Someone else may decide to jump in, but I will surely be able to give you a response in the coming days.

~Kris