I Am To Be An Instituted Acolyte

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' date='17 January 2010 - 02:10 PM' timestamp='1263755440' post='2039164']
Subdiaconate is a major order, eh? So what role do they have outside of the mass?
[/quote]

They practice celibacy and say the Divine Office.

I think it rather strange that the subdiaconate is considered a major order, however. The other major orders, namely, the diaconate, the prebysterate, and the episcopate, are all sacramental (adjective), whereas the minor orders and the subdiaconate are merely sacramentals (noun).

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='17 January 2010 - 02:21 PM' timestamp='1263756070' post='2039169']
They practice celibacy and say the Divine Office.

I think it rather strange that the subdiaconate is considered a major order, however. The other major orders, namely, the diaconate, the prebysterate, and the episcopate, are all sacramental (adjective), whereas the minor orders and the subdiaconate are merely sacramentals (noun).
[/quote]
I guess it was a lower "point of no return" on the way to the priesthood. They bumped it up to [transitional] deacon now

[Aloysius]

in the novus ordo, the minor orders do not exist, as I cited above. there is no celibacy, no nothing. it's an instituted lay ministry, nothing more.

minor orders in the extraordinary form are completely different, and are given while advancing towards the priesthood.

the role of the subdiaconate was dispersed among the lay ministries of lector and acolyte, which were supressed as minor orders and replaced with "lay ministries" of the same name with the same functions, plus some functions of the subdiaconate.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Aloysius

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='17 January 2010 - 02:31 PM' timestamp='1263756660' post='2039175']
in the novus ordo, the minor orders do not exist, as I cited above. there is no celibacy, no nothing. it's an instituted lay ministry, nothing more.[/quote]

Yeah, but this is the first time I've ever heard someone told to report to the bishop for a formal institution as acolyte.

But I guess I've been out of the loop as far as what Groo has been up to lately.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Norseman82

[Aloysius]

it has long been necessary for the bishops to create a real program for the institution of lay acolytes in accordance with Paul VI's suppression of the minor orders. Acolytes are the real Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, with the EMHCs that we see so prevalent today being something that should exist only in emergencies. It's just been that for too long they didn't want to exclude women (since only men can be acolytes) so they never bothered to make real EMHCs through instituting men as acolytes. As the tide is turning in the Church, I think programs to form acolytes will be more common and we'll see them replacing EMHCs hopefully.

I'd assume Groo was an EMHC, that's likely the reason he'd have been approached.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='17 January 2010 - 02:48 PM' timestamp='1263757711' post='2039184']
it has long been necessary for the bishops to create a real program for the institution of lay acolytes in accordance with Paul VI's suppression of the minor orders. Acolytes are the real Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, with the EMHCs that we see so prevalent today being something that should exist only in emergencies. It's just been that for too long they didn't want to exclude women (since only men can be acolytes) so they never bothered to make real EMHCs through instituting men as acolytes. As the tide is turning in the Church, I think programs to form acolytes will be more common and we'll see them replacing EMHCs hopefully.

I'd assume Groo was an EMHC, that's likely the reason he'd have been approached.
[/quote]

Ah, I see. The first time I heard the term "acolyte" years ago, it was in reference not to EMHCs, but rather to "altar boys", so that is what I always thought it referred to.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='17 January 2010 - 02:52 PM' timestamp='1263757930' post='2039185']
Ah, I see. The first time I heard the term "acolyte" years ago, it was in reference not to EMHCs, but rather to "altar boys", so that is what I always thought it referred to.
[/quote]

The original function of an acolyte was to be an altar server. Non-ordained altar servers developed when the minor orders became more of a stepping-stone to the priesthood than something seen in everyday parish life.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Resurrexi

[Veridicus]

Why precisely were the Minor Orders suppressed by Paul VI? Was this a necessary decision to be made in the incorporation of female laity into the liturgy? That is, would having the word 'order' attached to lector/acolyte/server preclude the possibility of coequal participation of the sexes in these aspects of the liturgy? Thus the abrogation of 'minor orders' may have been an attempt to both assuage femenists by allowing greater participation in the liturgy while at the same time preventing the obfuscation of female lay involvment with that of the ordained ministers. Just speculating...I'm not really versed on the matter. Or were the minor orders simply another superfluous liturgical accoutrement that developed after the 'purity' of primitive 1st century Church and thus deserved to be jettisoned?

Awaiting Resurrexi's erudite response.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Veridicus

[Aloysius]

novus ordo acolytes in addition to serving at the altar are to assume some roles of the subdiaconate and are designated to be special extraordinary ministers of holy communion "when the ministers spoken of in the Codex Iuris Canonici can. 845 are not available or are prevented by ill health, age, or another pastoral ministry from performing this function, or when the number of communicants is so great that the celebration of Mass would be unduly prolonged."

it is preferable to have acolytes instituted by the bishop as EMHCs than to have random parishioners designated by the pastor; indeed, having parishioners designated by the pastor was originally envisioned as an option if an unforeseen situation arose in which there were not enough priests and deacons and no acolytes to act as extraordinary ministers of holy communion.

I'd prefer not using any EMHCs, but if we have to have some, let them be instituted acolytes with a real liturgical role; not some flimsy ad hoc solution made to be common place though it is not a proper liturgical office.

[Veridicus]

Let me paraphrase:

[quote name='Aloysius' date='17 January 2010 - 02:08 PM' timestamp='1263758928' post='2039192']
[b][u][Insert liturgical abuse][/u][/b] was originally envisioned as an option if an unforeseen situation arose in which there were not enough priests and deacons...
[/quote]

Edited January 17, 2010 by Veridicus

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='17 January 2010 - 04:07 PM' timestamp='1263758859' post='2039191']
Why precisely were the Minor Orders suppressed by Paul VI? Was this a necessary decision to be made in the incorporation of female laity into the liturgy? That is, would having the word 'order' attached to lector/acolyte/server preclude the possibility of coequal participation of the sexes in these aspects of the liturgy? Thus the abrogation of 'minor orders' may have been an attempt to both assuage femenists by allowing greater participation in the liturgy while at the same time preventing the obfuscation of female lay involvment with that of the ordained ministers. Just speculating...I'm not really versed on the matter.

Awaiting Resurrexi's erudite response.
[/quote]
acolytes and lectors still must be male. which is why it's crazy that their ad hoc replacements, "readers", "EMHCs", and "servers", which is to say, those who are allowed to temporarily assume their functions if none are available, can be either sex. it would be a good canonical principal to say that anyone temporarily assuming a role ought to be someone who could potentially be in that role. an altar girl can never be an acolyte (an altar boy could grow up to be one), a female EMHC could never be an acolyte, and a female reader could never be a lector (though the term is often used loosely, the actual position of instituted lector is what I'm speaking of)... and yet all are allowed to assume this roles.

he lists his reasons in the document I linked to. something about trying to keep the boundary between laity and clergy more clear... not saying I agree with him, but there it is.

in any event, one thing about the suppression of minor orders is that it provides the solution for EMHCs: if there truly is a shortage of enough priests and deacons to distribute communion, let lay men (aged at least 25 in the US) be instituted to the formal liturgical office of Acolyte so that they can be the extra-ordinary ministers of Holy Communion... seeing as an acolyte actually can be called a "minister"; while the average EMHC is simply an ad hoc temporary minister.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Aloysius

[Veridicus]

Life would be simpler in the Church if we could just manage to abide by our own rules.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='17 January 2010 - 01:25 PM' timestamp='1263759926' post='2039200']
Life would be simpler in the Church if we could just manage to abide by our own rules.
[/quote]
+JMJ+
well, last time i checked, we're all sinners.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='17 January 2010 - 02:27 PM' timestamp='1263760051' post='2039202']
+JMJ+
well, last time i checked, we're all sinners.
[/quote]

Well, last time I checked, I used the word 'we.' Intentionally. Not all sin is equally scandalous or grave, however.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Veridicus

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='17 January 2010 - 01:28 PM' timestamp='1263760111' post='2039203']
Well, last time I checked, I used the word 'we.' Intentionally. Not all sin is equally scandalous or grave, however.
[/quote]
+JMJ+
i am sorry. i tire and get irritated too often with people complaining about Masses. i tire of superior attitudes (not speaking of you, but in general). i want people to be joyful.