Haitian Earthquake Caused By Angry Earth, Climate Change

[Ed Normile]

Stern when has America ever launched an uninitiated aggressive act against another nation in its history? Our aggressive acts have always been in response to hostilities aimed our homeland or in response to violations of another countries sovereignty.

ed

Edited January 17, 2010 by Ed Normile

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='17 January 2010 - 01:29 AM' timestamp='1263709790' post='2038991']
Stern when has America ever launched an uninitiated aggressive act against another nation in its history? Our aggressive acts have always been in response to hostilities aimed our homeland or in response to violations of another countries sovereignty.

ed
[/quote]

This isn't about particular wars, Ed, though I ask you to show me one in the past 50 years that was waged A) According to the Just War Theory (including morally just means of funding it) or B) Was started and actually fought for the reasons claimed by politicians. This is about the State in its essence. It is about how it acquires its funding. And what, by nature, the State does, based on how it acquires its money. It is not checked by a lack of customers, as the market is. Their non-aggressive "customers" are made to accept services by force or the threat thereof.

Ed, if you were stopped at a corner in your car, and I walked up and dipped my pebble-encrusted squeegee in a bucket of filthy water,and scraped it across your windshield unbeckoned, would I have a right to stick a gun in your face and demand "payment for services rendered?"

~Sternhauser

Edited January 17, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='17 January 2010 - 01:20 AM' timestamp='1263709226' post='2038987']
And this thread is about Anarchy now? seriously people, who the hell cares?
[/quote]

Yup, it seems to have strayed a tad from the original post, lets just pray for Haiti and ignore the angry earth.

ed

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='17 January 2010 - 01:32 AM' timestamp='1263709949' post='2038993']
This isn't about particular wars, Ed, though I ask you to show me one in the past 50 years that was waged A) According to the Just War Theory or B) Was started and actually fought for the reasons claimed by politicians. This is about the State in its essence.

Ed, if you were stopped at a corner in your car, and I walked upand dipped my pebble-encrusted squeegee in a bucket of filthy water,and scraped it across your windshield unbeckoned, would I have a rightto stick a gun in your face and demand "payment for services rendered?"

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Actually stern you have the right according to freewill to do whatever you want, but, according to the rules of the state you can not threaten me with a gun, accordingly my hoisting my 45 and ending your window washing career may be seen by some as an act of aggression, and in the courts under the rule of the state would be seen as a just action to protect my life, as in self defence. Of course there are no absolutes so we could argue this point like children endlessly.

ed

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='17 January 2010 - 01:38 AM' timestamp='1263710281' post='2038998']
Actually stern you have the right according to freewill to do whatever you want, but, according to the rules of the state you can not threaten me with a gun, accordingly my hoisting my 45 and ending your window washing career may be seen by some as an act of aggression, and in the courts under the rule of the state would be seen as a just action to protect my life, as in self defence. Of course there are no absolutes so we could argue this point like children endlessly.

ed
[/quote]

Absolutely, Ed. Your logic is flawless. Now apply it to the State, which also has no real moral claim to perform any such action. And while you're at it, why not hypothetically level your .45 on the taxation officer who is coming to collect your money which you allegedly "owe" for the "service" of waging unnecessary wars overseas, or funding abortions, State "charity," or any other number of forced "services rendered." Or hypothetically level your .45 on the police officer who thinks he has the "authority of the State" to club and cuff you for blocking access to an abortion mill. Or any other number of good deeds we should not fear to do, "because rulers are not a terror to good works," but[i] only[/i] to the evildoer. Rather we shall receive "[i]praise[/i]" for good works from "the power."

Look at these "ministers of God," these princes and powers, just [i]showering [/i]praises on these racial equality activists.

[img]http://media-files.gather.com/images/d147/d597/d744/d224/d96/f3/full.jpg[/img]

[img]http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/art/mlk/photogallery/1963-65/photo01.jpg[/img]



They heaped a lot of praise on pro-life protesters, too. Countless praises of broken arms and hickory shampoos were lavished upon them by the Powers.

Now, that no one might be scandalized in my use of St. Paul's words, I am not condemning what St. Paul said. I am condemning the simplistic, single-minded notions of what St. Paul was saying when he said that we need not fear the princes and powers, because they are "[i]only[/i] a terror to evildoers" and that [i]they[/i] "do not bear the sword in vain."

~Sternhauser

Edited January 17, 2010 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='17 January 2010 - 01:38 AM' timestamp='1263710281' post='2038998']
Actually stern you have the right according to freewill to do whatever you want, but, according to the rules of the state you can not threaten me with a gun, accordingly my hoisting my 45 and ending your window washing career may be seen by some as an act of aggression, and in the courts under the rule of the state would be seen as a just action to protect my life, as in self defence. Of course there are no absolutes so we could argue this point like children endlessly.

ed
[/quote]

The freewill to do what is wrong is not the right to do what is wrong.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='17 January 2010 - 01:41 AM' timestamp='1263710518' post='2039000']
Now apply it to the State, which also has no real moral claim to perform any such action.
[/quote]

According to clear Church teaching the State does have the right to enact laws, enforce justice, and punish law breakers.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='17 January 2010 - 02:04 AM' timestamp='1263711841' post='2039008']
The freewill to do what is wrong is not the right to do what is wrong.
[/quote]

I can agree with that, which was my point anyway, there is a difference in freewill and what you do with it.

ed

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='17 January 2010 - 01:41 AM' timestamp='1263710518' post='2039000']
Absolutely, Ed. Your logic is flawless. Now apply it to the State, which also has no real moral claim to perform any such action. And while you're at it, why not hypothetically level your .45 on the taxation officer who is coming to collect your money which you allegedly "owe" for the "service" of waging unnecessary wars overseas, or funding abortions, State "charity," or any other number of forced "services rendered." Or hypothetically level your .45 on the police officer who thinks he has the "authority of the State" to club and cuff you for blocking access to an abortion mill. Or any other number of good deeds we should not fear to do, "because rulers are not a terror to good works," but[i] only[/i] to the evildoer. Rather we shall receive "[i]praise[/i]" for good works from "the power."

Look at these "ministers of God," these princes and powers, just [i]showering [/i]praises on these racial equality activists.

[img]http://media-files.gather.com/images/d147/d597/d744/d224/d96/f3/full.jpg[/img]

[img]http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/art/mlk/photogallery/1963-65/photo01.jpg[/img]



They heaped a lot of praise on pro-life protesters, too. Countless praises of broken arms and hickory shampoos were lavished upon them by the Powers.

Now, that no one might be scandalized in my use of St. Paul's words, I am not condemning what St. Paul said. I am condemning the simplistic, single-minded notions of what St. Paul was saying when he said that we need not fear the princes and powers, because they are "[i]only[/i] a terror to evildoers" and that [i]they[/i] "do not bear the sword in vain."

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Unjust use of power of enforcement is not proof that there is no right of power of the State to enforce law. The above is an emotional appeal, which forgets the common just use of enforcement of law. Without enforcement of law there is no law, and that is counter to the Supreme Law Giver.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='17 January 2010 - 02:46 AM' timestamp='1263714378' post='2039021']
Unjust use of power of enforcement is not proof that there is no right of power of the State to enforce law. The above is an emotional appeal, which forgets the common just use of enforcement of law. Without enforcement of law there is no law, and that is counter to the Supreme Law Giver.
[/quote]

No, Knight of Christ. You're not getting the point. If they are actually powers, they're not abusing anything, up there. St. Paul said that the princes and powers are [i]only[/i] a terror to evildoers, and that if you do good, the princes or powers will [i]praise[/i] you. The power does [i]not[/i] bear the sword in vain, and he is "a minister of God, bringing wrath upon and punishing" those evildoers in the photos above. If they are powers at all, they cannot be doing what they are doing above, because I'm not seeing much terror done to [i]only[/i] evildoers in those photos.

So either those thugs in badges [i]aren't[/i] the "princes" or "powers" that St. Paul was talking about, or they are doing the work of God.

Seems St. Paul's statements indicate that someone who is ever a terror to the good or who [i]does[/i] bear the sword in vain is not a legitimate prince [i]or[/i] a power.

St. Paul was giving defining characteristics of a prince or a power. He was not making a blanket statement about anyone in power.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 17, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Lil Red]

+JMJ+
Stern, why do you turn every topic into a discussion about the State?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='17 January 2010 - 12:03 PM' timestamp='1263747830' post='2039116']
No, Knight of Christ. You're not getting the point. If they are actually powers, they're not abusing anything, up there. St. Paul said that the princes and powers are [i]only[/i] a terror to evildoers, and that if you do good, the princes or powers will [i]praise[/i] you. The power does [i]not[/i] bear the sword in vain, and he is "a minister of God, bringing wrath upon and punishing" those evildoers in the photos above. If they are powers at all, they cannot be doing what they are doing above, because I'm not seeing much terror done to [i]only[/i] evildoers in those photos.

So either those thugs in badges [i]aren't[/i] the "princes" or "powers" that St. Paul was talking about, or they are doing the work of God.

Seems St. Paul's statements indicate that someone who is ever a terror to the good or who [i]does[/i] bear the sword in vain is not a legitimate prince [i]or[/i] a power.

St. Paul was giving defining characteristics of a prince or a power. He was not making a blanket statement about anyone in power.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

More nonsense personal interpretations of the Bible. Also I did not even quote St. Paul's Letter to the Hebrews, it doesn't matter anyway because the Church, and Church Fathers teach counter to your personal false interpretation.