Haitian Earthquake Caused By Angry Earth, Climate Change

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='16 January 2010 - 02:16 PM' timestamp='1263669381' post='2038617']
Stern you wrote "You still haven't given me the Church's magisterial definition of a State, Knight. (This "State" is an entity without any apparent Church definition. An undefined entity which you indirectly say we must acknowledge in order to be saved, because any other understanding of this non-existent definition is "heresy!")"

The Catechism has much about the definition of state, [color="#ff0000"]C.C.C[/color] 1897 through 1917 deals with the absolute need for a governing authority to work for the good of the people and the need for the people to recognize that authority.

For example [color="#ff0000"]C.C.C [/color]1899 The authority required by the moral order derives from God; "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgement" footnote added ROM 13:1-2; cf. 1 PET 2:13-17
C.C.C 1900 The duty of obedience requires all to give due honor to authority and to treat those who are charged exercise it with respect, and, insofar as it is deserved, with gratitude and good-will.
Its exhaustive, yet the gist of the whole section Titled Article 2 Participation In Social Life deals with the absolute need for peoples to both respect and recognize authority and the need for proper establishment and rule of a state to administer to the needs of society.

ed
[/quote]

It's not worth it, he's blind to such truths.

[Ed Normile]

Stern I think you touched upon the truth, all authority on earth is instituted through God by his will to give us our free will. We do not always make the right choices, but we trust in God, and as so we recognize authority. This is the basis of society.

ed

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='17 January 2010 - 12:33 AM' timestamp='1263706389' post='2038959']
Stern I think you touched upon the truth, all authority on earth is instituted through God by his will to give us our free will. We do not always make the right choices, but we trust in God, and as so we recognize authority. This is the basis of society.

ed
[/quote]

We recognize authority. And we recognize that aggression is not a manifestation of authority. Ever.

The basis of society is the definition of society: mutually-beneficial free-will interactions among individuals, hopefully with the ultimate end of increasing the likelihood of salvation for each individual. That is why we call murder, rape and robbery "[i]anti[/i]-social" behaviors.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 17, 2010 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

Authority without enforcement is not Authority that will be obeyed, followed or respected.

[Happy_Catholic]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='16 January 2010 - 03:55 AM' timestamp='1263632109' post='2038397']
considering the earthquake happened 10 miles underground i doubt a bunch of surface holes did anything.
[/quote]

So... you're saying its the mole people?

Or perhaps Krang got Technodrome working?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='17 January 2010 - 12:39 AM' timestamp='1263706795' post='2038963']
Authority without enforcement is not Authority that will be obeyed, followed or respected.
[/quote]

And the Church understands and teaches this...


From the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church

III. POLITICAL AUTHORITY

a. The foundation of political authority
...
393. The Church has always considered different ways of understanding authority, taking care to defend and propose a model of authority that is founded on the social nature of the person. "Since God made men social by nature, and since no society can hold together unless some one be over all, directing all to strive earnestly for the common good, every civilized community must have a ruling authority, and this authority, no less than society itself, has its source in nature, and has, consequently, God for its author".[799] Political authority is therefore necessary [800] because of the responsibilities assigned to it. Political authority is and must be a positive and irreplaceable component of civil life.[801]
...

e. Inflicting punishment
...
402. In order to protect the common good, the lawful public authority must exercise the right and the duty to inflict punishments according to the seriousness of the crimes committed[827]. The State has the twofold responsibility to discourage behaviour that is harmful to human rights and the fundamental norms of civil life, and to repair, through the penal system, the disorder created by criminal activity. In a State ruled by law the power to inflict punishment is correctly entrusted to the Courts: "In defining the proper relationships between the legislative, executive and judicial powers, the Constitutions of modern States guarantee the judicial power the necessary independence in the realm of law".[828][/b]

403. Punishment does not serve merely the purpose of defending the public order and guaranteeing the safety of persons; it becomes as well an instrument for the correction of the offender, a correction that also takes on the moral value of expiation when the guilty party voluntarily accepts his punishment.[829] There is a twofold purpose here. On the one hand, encouraging the re-insertion of the condemned person into society; on the other, fostering a justice that reconciles, a justice capable of restoring harmony in social relationships disrupted by the criminal act committed.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='17 January 2010 - 12:39 AM' timestamp='1263706795' post='2038963']
Authority without enforcement is not Authority that will be obeyed, followed or respected.
[/quote]

Aggression is not a part of authority. Note, once again, that violence is not a synonym for aggression.

I'm done with your refusal to post a definition of "State." Good day.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 17, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='17 January 2010 - 12:34 AM' timestamp='1263706483' post='2038960']
We recognize authority. And we recognize that aggression is not a manifestation of authority. Ever.

The basis of society is the definition of society: mutually-beneficial free-will interactions among individuals. Particularly with the end of aiding the process of salvation for each individual. That is why we call murder, rape and robbery "[i]anti[/i]-social" behaviors.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

In your examples, murder, rape and robbery, yes they are anti-social, when these crimes occur authorities must manifest aggression to apprehend and punish those committing the offense. The same is true if we are to be proponents of freedom and safety, not only for our country, but if we are to be decent examples of liberty we can not allow murderous aggressive acts committed against any peoples. As we say we believe in justice, then we can not turn a blind eye to acts of injustice, if we promote freedom as we believe God has given us freedom how can we turn a blind eye to oppression in any region. We are not perfect here in America, but we far outshine any modern society in that right, I would offer that we have outshone any example of society too date. There are good and bad in all walks of life, no act of men can be perfect, however, the fact that we try to better the world puts us above and beyond any leadership or society that opts to ignore injustices.

ed

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='17 January 2010 - 12:52 AM' timestamp='1263707560' post='2038972']
In your examples, murder, rape and robbery, yes they are anti-social, when these crimes occur authorities must manifest aggression to apprehend and punish those committing the offense. The same is true if we are to be proponents of freedom and safety, not only for our country, but if we are to be decent examples of liberty we can not allow murderous aggressive acts committed against any peoples. As we say we believe in justice, then we can not turn a blind eye to acts of injustice, if we promote freedom as we believe God has given us freedom how can we turn a blind eye to oppression in any region. We are not perfect here in America, but we far outshine any modern society in that right, I would offer that we have outshone any example of society too date. There are good and bad in all walks of life, no act of men can be perfect, however, the fact that we try to better the world puts us above and beyond any leadership or society that opts to ignore injustices.

ed
[/quote]

Ed, Ed, Ed.

Aggression: N. "The act of [i][b]initiating[/b][/i] hostilities or invasion." [url="http://www.answers.com/topic/aggression"]http://www.answers.c...opic/aggression[/url]

"a forceful action or procedure (as an [b][i]unprovoked attack[/i][/b]) especially when intended to dominate or master"

[url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aggression"]http://www.merriam-w...nary/aggression[/url]

Once again: [i]aggression[/i] is not [i]mere violence. [/i]

The State, by its nature, uses [b][i]aggression[/i][/b], not merely violence. The State, but its nature, [b][i]initiates[/i][/b] attacks against non-aggressive people. [i][b]Aggression[/b][/i] is intrinsically immoral. I have no problem with a State that does not use aggression. I also have no problem with an abortionist who does not commit abortions.


~Sternhauser

Edited January 17, 2010 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='17 January 2010 - 12:49 AM' timestamp='1263707390' post='2038970']
Aggression is not a part of authority. Note, once again, that violence is not a synonym for aggression.

I'm done with your refusal to post a definition of "State." Good day.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

[url="http://www.catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=33789"]STATE/GOVERNMENT[/url]

According to scholastic philosophy, the authoritative direction of a people, requiring them to use certain prescribed means for realizing a predetermined plan for the common good. Essential to the notion of government are authority vested in certain designated persons; management of things pertaining to the common good; an official plan or overview of what needs to be done to promote the welfare of the society; laws that express the will of those in authority relative to the advancement of the public good; sanctions that may be imposed on those who do not observe the laws. (Etym. Latin gubernare, to direct, manage, conduct, govern, guide.)

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='17 January 2010 - 12:57 AM' timestamp='1263707859' post='2038977']
Ed, Ed, Ed.

Aggression: N. "The act of [i][b]initiating[/b][/i] hostilities or invasion." [url="http://www.answers.com/topic/aggression"]http://www.answers.c...opic/aggression[/url]

"a forceful action or procedure (as an [b][i]unprovoked attack[/i][/b]) especially when intended to dominate or master"

[url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aggression"]http://www.merriam-w...nary/aggression[/url]

Once again: [i]aggression[/i] is not [i]mere violence. [/i]

The State, by its nature, uses [b][i]aggression[/i][/b], not merely violence. [i][b]Aggression[/b][/i] is intrinsically immoral. I have no problem with a State that does not use aggression. I also have no problem with an abortionist who does not commit abortions.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='17 January 2010 - 12:47 AM' timestamp='1263707257' post='2038968']
From the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church

III. POLITICAL AUTHORITY

e. Inflicting punishment
...
402. In order to protect the common good, the lawful public authority [b]must exercise the right and the duty to inflict punishments[/b] according to the seriousness of the crimes committed[827]. The State has the twofold responsibility to discourage behaviour that is harmful to human rights and the fundamental norms of civil life, and to repair, through the penal system, the disorder created by criminal activity. In a State ruled by law the power to inflict punishment is correctly entrusted to the Courts: "In defining the proper relationships between the legislative, executive and judicial powers, the Constitutions of modern States guarantee the judicial power the necessary independence in the realm of law".[828][/b]

403. [b]Punishment does not serve merely the purpose of defending the public order and guaranteeing the safety of persons; it becomes as well an instrument for the correction of the offender, a correction that also takes on the moral value of expiation when the guilty party voluntarily accepts his punishment.[829] There is a twofold purpose here. On the one hand, encouraging the re-insertion of the condemned person into society; on the other, fostering a justice that reconciles, a justice capable of restoring harmony in social relationships disrupted by the criminal act committed.[/b]
[/quote]

[Ed Normile]

[color="#ff0000"]C.C .C .[/color] 1901 If authority belongs to the order established by God, "the choice of political regime and the appointment of rulers are left to the free decision of the citizens.

Your argument has come down to semantics over the use of the word state? The definition here of state would be, a politically organized body of people under a single government. As the Catechism is intended for the members of the church worldwide, and the semantics of political terms vary in every region they use authority, which in this sense is the same as the "state" . In America we have a Republic with elected representatives led by a President, in England they have a Parliamentary Monarchy, Russia has what they call a Federation, Canada has a Constitutional Monarchy, Iraq has a federal parliamentary representative democratic republic while the Government of India is known as a Union Government, however it is named by whatever place a society exists these are considered the authority and can be properly considered the "state".

ed

[Jesus_lol]

And this thread is about Anarchy now? seriously people, who the hell cares?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='17 January 2010 - 01:14 AM' timestamp='1263708893' post='2038985']
[color="#ff0000"]C.C .C .[/color] 1901 If authority belongs to the order established by God, "the choice of political regime and the appointment of rulers are left to the free decision of the citizens.

Your argument has come down to semantics over the use of the word state? The definition here of state would be, a politically organized body of people under a single government. As the Catechism is intended for the members of the church worldwide, and the semantics of political terms vary in every region they use authority, which in this sense is the same as the "state" . In America we have a Republic with elected representatives led by a President, in England they have a Parliamentary Monarchy, Russia has what they call a Federation, Canada has a Constitutional Monarchy, Iraq has a federal parliamentary representative democratic republic while the Government of India is known as a Union Government, however it is named by whatever place a society exists these are considered the authority and can be properly considered the "state".

ed
[/quote]

My argument has come down to aggression. Either the State has the moral authority to commit immoral acts (use aggression) or it does not. I define the State as an individual or group of individuals who claim the right to a violent monopoly, including the right to aggression, over a certain geographic area. I want to know how the Church defines the State. Because some here claim that[i] [/i]my rejection of the notion that aggression can be legitimate is "heresy."

~Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='17 January 2010 - 01:22 AM' timestamp='1263709344' post='2038989']
My argument has come down to aggression. Either the State has the moral authority to commit immoral acts (use aggression) or it does not. I define the State as an individual or group of individuals who claim the right to a violent monopoly, including the right to aggression, over a certain geographic area. I want to know how the Church defines the State. Because some here claim that[i] [/i]my rejection of the notion that aggression can be legitimate is "heresy."

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Just Punishment is not immoral.