Some Fear Kansas Ruling May Spur Abortion Violence

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='nunsense' date='14 January 2010 - 06:03 PM' timestamp='1263510214' post='2037205']
No one is asking you to be silent, just not to commit murder.
[/quote]

I would never kill or murder anyone. And I think what happened to Tiller was extremely wrong. But I think this whole court ruling will be interesting. And Im sure it may make a few people look at a few things a little differently.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='15 January 2010 - 09:54 AM' timestamp='1263509646' post='2037199']
Was it wrong for American soldiers to kill the Nazi soldiers? Or destroy the Concentration camps? Are not Abortionists just like the Nazi's? Are not Abortion clinics just like the concentration camps?
[/quote]

If this is your logic, then nothing I say will make a difference. No, this is not the same thing. Soldiers fighting soldiers are not cowardly. Walking into an abortion clinic and shoorting an unarmed man is act of moral cowardice, not right.


[quote]Tiller should have been given the chance to surrender and be locked in a cell like a psychopathic killer would be. I think its wrong that he was murdered without the chance to surrender his office and building.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree that abortion clinics should be shut down, and that there needs to be serious re-education about abortion. Many, many people believe that a fetus is not life, they think it is no different than the tissue and blood of a menses. They are wrong, but they are living in invincible ignorance and need our prayers and our help to see their evil - not to be murdered for this error and ignorant evil. I don't believe that any of these people wake up in the morning and say to themselves "Oh joy, I am going to murder a baby today!"

[Winchester]

[quote name='nunsense' date='14 January 2010 - 06:03 PM' timestamp='1263510214' post='2037205']
No one is asking you to be silent, just not to commit murder.
[/quote]
What is the difference between using violence to stop an abortionist and using violence to stop any other person unjustly taking an innocent life?

You can judge what is legally murder, but morally it's a different story. You can't accuse this man morally of murder. You haven't a clue what was in his heart.

[Winchester]

[quote name='nunsense' date='14 January 2010 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1263510617' post='2037211']
I don't believe that any of these people wake up in the morning and say to themselves "Oh joy, I am going to murder a baby today!"
[/quote]
Probably not. All they really care about is the money.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='nunsense' date='14 January 2010 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1263510617' post='2037211']

Yes, I agree that abortion clinics should be shut down, and that there needs to be serious re-education about abortion. Many, many people believe that a fetus is not life, they think it is no different than the tissue and blood of a menses. They are wrong, but they are living in invincible ignorance and need our prayers and our help to see their evil - not to be murdered for this error and ignorant evil. I don't believe that any of these people wake up in the morning and say to themselves "Oh joy, I am going to murder a baby today!"
[/quote]

Dont forget that this man did late term abortion. Its quite clear to them that what they are killing is an innocent little baby.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Winchester' date='15 January 2010 - 09:50 AM' timestamp='1263509431' post='2037197']
So you believe only in self defense?
[/quote]


Sorry, Winchester, I nearly missed your post since we now have two pages to read through!

Do I believe only in self-defense? Let me think about that. I try to live the Gospels as taught by Our Lord, and I know that these are open to many interpretations by different people trying to prove their own points (I am no exception). I follow the teachings of the Church, so if she says that such a thing as a "just war" is possible, then I have to believe her. My own daughter is in the military, so I have to accept this "necessary evil" as part of our world, dont' I?

Personally, I like to think that I would not kill someone else to save my own life, but that I would do as Stephen or Our Lord did, and ask God to forgive them for what they are doing in their ignorance. Whether I would have the courage not to defend myself at the time is another thing however.

When my daughter was a baby, I would probably have fought like a mother lionness defending her cub, if she was threatened in any way, but now she could better defend me (she has her own rifle and is an expert marksman!) and I have changed a lot spiritually since then as well.

So, do I believe in self-defense? I accept that it is everyone's right, but I don't know how I would react if placed in such a situation. I do know that I would not walk into an abortion clinic and murder someone in cold blood and call it self-defense or even defense of others. The pregnant mother that was going to go to him for an abortion is going to find another abortionist to do the work - perhaps we need to go shoot her instead? Oh yeah, that would kill the baby! Duh. Let's wait until the baby is born and then kill her! This logic is so dangerous.... murder is murder. Abortionists are wrong. So are their murderers.

[CatherineM]

I suspect that Roeder's past psychiatric history will play more into the sentencing than his wanting to defend the unborn.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Winchester' date='15 January 2010 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1263510717' post='2037214']
Probably not. All they really care about is the money.
[/quote]


So I can't judge another's morality, but you can?

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='15 January 2010 - 10:07 AM' timestamp='1263510426' post='2037207']
I beleive Jesus had them buy swords to defend themselves from the soldiers not Jesus himself. But to defend eachother. Why else would he have them buy swords right before this scenario?
[/quote]


I don't know and neither do you. The fact is that neither Jesus nor any of the Apostles used violence to defend themselves after the scene at His arrest. I have heard many interesting interpretations of what Jesus was trying to say with the sword thing, and most of them do not indicate that He was advocating violence.

[Winchester]

[quote name='nunsense' date='14 January 2010 - 06:20 PM' timestamp='1263511231' post='2037220']
So I can't judge another's morality, but you can?
[/quote]
Yeah, that's generally the idea.

Abortionists don't live paycheck to paycheck. They don't do it for free and the industry does everything it can to maximize profits. There's plenty of evidence that it's about money. Whether they're guilty of that morally or not, I don't know, but they're not in it for the charity work.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='15 January 2010 - 10:19 AM' timestamp='1263511173' post='2037219']
I suspect that Roeder's past psychiatric history will play more into the sentencing than his wanting to defend the unborn.
[/quote]

And this poor man needs our prayers as well. His soul has been affected by what he has done, and if he has a mental illness as well, then he needs all the help he can get.

[Winchester]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='14 January 2010 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1263511173' post='2037219']
I suspect that Roeder's past psychiatric history will play more into the sentencing than his wanting to defend the unborn.
[/quote]
I'll bet he's totally nuts.

[Winchester]

[quote name='nunsense' date='14 January 2010 - 06:18 PM' timestamp='1263511108' post='2037218']
The pregnant mother that was going to go to him for an abortion is going to find another abortionist to do the work - perhaps we need to go shoot her instead? Oh yeah, that would kill the baby! Duh. Let's wait until the baby is born and then kill her! This logic is so dangerous.... murder is murder. [/quote]

Straw man. And simply because an argument is dangerous does not mean it's wrong. Much of Catholic theology is dangerous.

I agree that murder is murder, but murder is unjust killing with the intent to take a life--legislation does not play a role in the morality of killing. Would it be murder to kill someone legally killing two year olds, if that were the law? What is the difference between a two year old and an unborn child that makes stopping one murder wrong and another laudable?

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Winchester' date='15 January 2010 - 10:33 AM' timestamp='1263512020' post='2037226']
Yeah, that's generally the idea.

Abortionists don't live paycheck to paycheck. They don't do it for free and the industry does everything it can to maximize profits. There's plenty of evidence that it's about money. Whether they're guilty of that morally or not, I don't know, but they're not in it for the charity work.
[/quote]


Winchester, I am not about to judge this man's motivations, and it may be that you are right. I don't know. But one minute you tell me not to judge someone, and then you do the same thing.

I also don't know whether you are a cradle Catholic or not, but I can tell you from my own personal history, that not everyone who thinks abortion is ok, is evil or motivated by evil. I was raised in an agnostic/atheist family. We were not evil, and my parents were moral, upright and good people who marched to protest segregation in the South, and who fought against Macarthyism when our Jewish friends were being blackballed. We were for social justice and equality and all that good stuff. But in my family, there was no God and we didn't believe that life begins at conception, and that the soul was immortal and eternal etc. Abortion was a private decision to be made by the woman.

We were basically taught, "Live a really good life and do good to others because this is the only life there is and it is right to do good." There was no soul before birth or after death to think about. My Dad wouldn't let us lie or steal or do anything bad like that because it was morally wrong, not because it would offend God. I am just saying that not everyone who does evil IS evil. Today, I have family working for the Public Advocate's office, and doing all manner of other good works, but most of them still believe that abortion is not an evil, and that it is every woman's right to decide for herself. I praise God for the grace of conversion and the understanding that abortion IS an evil and the murder of an unborn soul. My beliefs have caused me much heartache in debates with my own family.

What I hate to see though, is the total vilification of all people who live in an invicible ignorance because they either lack God in their lives, or because they just don't have the grace of understanding yet. Rather than run around murdering everyone who either believes that abortion is ok (shouldn't that include the pregnant Moms - after they give birth of course - who are paying to have this evil done?) or who is performing the abortion (for whatever reason, monetary or a misguided sense of service) - we should be praying for their souls and for the souls of the babies. I think we would do so much more good if we could effect a conversion, rather than trying to stamp out a great evil by performing even more acts of evil. Our Lady will intercede for all these babies (who are her children) if we help her through our prayers and penance and good works).

Let's change the laws and the minds and the hearts - not ruthlessly mow down anyone who is too ignorant to know better.

And to answer another poster - just because someone knows the anatomy involved (e.g. a doctor who does late term abortions) doesn't mean that they understand that this is a human life with a soul. Ignorance comes in many forms.

[Winchester]

We are all motivated by evil when we adopt evil positions or commit evil acts. Putting nice words to it doesn't change reality. I wasn't insulated form life and I don't imagine all pro-abortion rights advocates to be ravening psychotics. This is the same with all groups that have supported atrocities. I reckon there were a lot of very nice slave owners in the South, as well.

They were still slavers.