Some Fear Kansas Ruling May Spur Abortion Violence

[Jaime]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='13 January 2010 - 10:12 AM' timestamp='1263395536' post='2036136']
Let me rephrase this.



It is well that some have had conversion experiences. The fact is, stopping such people from murdering babies, through such means is moral. A murderer forefeits his own life. Are you denying that that man was a murderer? You might see it as sad that someone has to kill a State-subsidized, State-protected serial killer in order to stop his "lawful" bloody rampage. I do, too.

Now, is it as effective as other means of stopping abortion? Can you remedy a sick culture in the [i]long run [/i]by merely removing the [i]side-effects[/i] of that culture? I do not believe so.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

I have already demonstrated in another thread that your position in no way shape or form represents Church teaching. The fact that you continue to misrepresent what the Church says to try to justify your position is appalling.

[Winchester]

So if tomorrow they legalized killing adults who were not their own guardians if the guardians so chose, would it be wrong to use violence to stop this from being done?

[CatherineM]

I don't think we need to make any martyrs for them.

[Winchester]

That's not really an answer. The fact is, we're acting from fear of the government, not from moral theology. Myself included, and I have no plans to change. The only possible out is that we live in a democracy and can thus fight without shedding blood. I don't think our options are exhausted in that realm, yet. Of course, were I the government, I would maintain the illusion that peaceful options were not exhausted, thus staving off violent revolt for the most part.

The best course of action is to vote for those who believe in state's rights and a smaller Federal government. This is why I like Perry, who had the smarts to reject Federal grant money.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Winchester' date='15 January 2010 - 04:11 AM' timestamp='1263489098' post='2036996']
That's not really an answer. The fact is, we're acting from fear of the government, not from moral theology. Myself included, and I have no plans to change. The only possible out is that we live in a democracy and can thus fight without shedding blood. I don't think our options are exhausted in that realm, yet. Of course, were I the government, I would maintain the illusion that peaceful options were not exhausted, thus staving off violent revolt for the most part.

The best course of action is to vote for those who believe in state's rights and a smaller Federal government. This is why I like Perry, who had the smarts to reject Federal grant money.
[/quote]


If we were only living for this life, I might consider what you are saying. But some of us are living for the Kingdom of Heaven and eternal life. What profiteth a man if he gain the whole world and lose his soul? Plese just show me where in the scriptures it says that Jesus told his followers to kill those who were threatening the lives of others....

[Winchester]

[quote name='nunsense' date='14 January 2010 - 05:09 PM' timestamp='1263506994' post='2037174']
If we were only living for this life, I might consider what you are saying. But some of us are living for the Kingdom of Heaven and eternal life. What profiteth a man if he gain the whole world and lose his soul? Plese just show me where in the scriptures it says that Jesus told his followers to kill those who were threatening the lives of others....
[/quote]
And there is nothing wrong with meeting violence with prayer--I should have been clearer. You are not obliged to use violence to defend life. I didn't argue that. But the Church says we are permitted to defend life against unjust aggression with physical violence.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Winchester

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Winchester' date='15 January 2010 - 09:38 AM' timestamp='1263508708' post='2037190']
And there is nothing wrong with meeting violence with prayer--I should have been clearer. You are not obliged to use violence to defend life. I didn't argue that. But the Church says we are permitted to defend life against unjust aggression with physical violence.
[/quote]


Yes, I see this, but permission to defend life is not the same thing as walking into an abortion clinic with the express intention of taking the life of someone who just happened to be standing there talking at the time.

Taking a basic principle of self-defense and then twisting to make murder acceptable is just not in line with Jesus' teachings. (IMHO) This is slippery slope thinking and will lead to all manner of unjust and evil acts and allow anyone to do anything they want as long as they can justify it to themselves as an act of defending someone else. I don't buy it.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='nunsense' date='14 January 2010 - 05:09 PM' timestamp='1263506994' post='2037174']
If we were only living for this life, I might consider what you are saying. But some of us are living for the Kingdom of Heaven and eternal life. What profiteth a man if he gain the whole world and lose his soul? Plese just show me where in the scriptures it says that Jesus told his followers to kill those who were threatening the lives of others....
[/quote]


Luke 22:36

But they said: Nothing. Then said he unto them: But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a scrip; and he that hath not, let him sell his coat, [u]and buy a sword[/u].

[Winchester]

[quote name='nunsense' date='14 January 2010 - 05:45 PM' timestamp='1263509107' post='2037193']
Yes, I see this, but permission to defend life is not the same thing as walking into an abortion clinic with the express intention of taking the life of someone who just happened to be standing there talking at the time.

Taking a basic principle of self-defense and then twisting to make murder acceptable is just not in line with Jesus' teachings. (IMHO) This is slippery slope thinking and will lead to all manner of unjust and evil acts and allow anyone to do anything they want as long as they can justify it to themselves as an act of defending someone else. I don't buy it.
[/quote]
So you believe only in self defense?

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

Was it wrong for American soldiers to kill the Nazi soldiers? Or destroy the Concentration camps? Are not Abortionists just like the Nazi's? Are not Abortion clinics just like the concentration camps?


Tiller should have been given the chance to surrender and be locked in a cell like a psychopathic killer would be. I think its wrong that he was murdered without the chance to surrender his office and building.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

Abortionist should be put in prison and given psychological counceling. As they are still free they should be treated as criminals and fugitives.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

We are in WWII part II. This is the silent genocide. Lets not remain silent.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='15 January 2010 - 09:49 AM' timestamp='1263509344' post='2037195']
Luke 22:36

But they said: Nothing. Then said he unto them: But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a scrip; and he that hath not, let him sell his coat, [u]and buy a sword[/u].
[/quote]

If you are going to quote scripture at me, then go forward to the part where Peter tries to defend Jesus against the Roman soldier and cuts his ear off with that sword that Jesus said he needed! Then Jesus told him that he who lives by the sword dies by the sword, and healed the man's ear. Any part of scripture can be taken out of context, but Jesus did not set an example of killing others in self-defense. Nor did any of the Apsotles after His death.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='15 January 2010 - 09:58 AM' timestamp='1263509913' post='2037201']
We are in WWII part II. This is the silent genocide. Lets not remain silent.
[/quote]


No one is asking you to be silent, just not to commit murder.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='nunsense' date='14 January 2010 - 06:02 PM' timestamp='1263510149' post='2037203']
If you are going to quote scripture at me, then go forward to the part where Peter tries to defend Jesus against the Roman soldier and cuts his ear off with that sword that Jesus said he needed! Then Jesus told him that he who lives by the sword dies by the sword, and healed the man's ear. Any part of scripture can be taken out of context, but Jesus did not set an example of killing others in self-defense. Nor did any of the Apsotles after His death.
[/quote]


I beleive Jesus had them buy swords to defend themselves from the soldiers not Jesus himself. But to defend eachother. Why else would he have them buy swords right before this scenario?