Some Fear Kansas Ruling May Spur Abortion Violence

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[font="Arial Narrow"][size="5"]Some fear Kan. ruling may spur abortion violence[/size][/font]

WICHITA, Kan. – A Kansas judge's decision to allow a confessed killer to argue that he believes the slaying of one of the nation's few late-term abortion providers was a justified act aimed at saving unborn children has upended what most expected to be an open-and-shut first-degree murder case.

Prosecutors have challenged the ruling that allows Scott Roeder to tell a jury that the fatal shooting of Wichita doctor George Tiller was voluntary manslaughter. A Tuesday hearing is scheduled to allow Roeder's defense attorneys to respond.

Some abortion opponents were pleasantly stunned and eager to watch Roeder plead his case. Tiller's colleagues and abortion rights advocates were outraged and feared the court's actions give a more than tacit approval to further acts of violence.

"This judge has basically announced a death sentence for all of us who help women," said Dr. Warren Hern of Boulder, Colo., a longtime friend of Tiller who also performs late-term abortions. "That is the effect of the ruling."

The facts of the case are not in dispute: On a balmy Sunday morning, Roeder got up from a pew at Wichita's Reformation Lutheran Church at the start of services and walked to the foyer, where Tiller and a fellow usher were chatting. Wordlessly, he pressed the barrel of a .22-caliber handgun to Tiller's forehead and pulled the trigger.

Prosecutors charged Roeder with first-degree murder. The 51-year-old from Kansas City, Mo., later admitted to reporters and in a court filing that he killed Tiller. The prosecution stands ready with more than 250 prospective witnesses to prove it.

But what had been expected to be a simple trial was altered Friday when Sedgwick County Judge Warren Wilbert decided he would allow Roeder to build a defense case calling for a lesser charge of voluntary manslaughter because Roeder sincerely believed the May 31 slaying would save unborn children.

Kansas law defines voluntary manslaughter as "an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force." A conviction could bring a prison sentence closer to five years, instead of a life term for first-degree murder.

Prosecutors argued Monday that such a defense should not be considered because there is no evidence Tiller posed an imminent threat at the time of the killing.

"The State encourages this Court to not be the first to enable a defendant to justify premeditated murder because of an emotionally charged political belief," the prosecution wrote.

As events unfold inside a Wichita courtroom, the Kansas Supreme Court was considering a challenge from four media outlets, including The Associated Press, over the judge's decision to bar reporters from witnessing jury selection.

But key questions being asked outside the courtroom have galvanized both sides of the abortion debate.

Will the judge's decision embolden militant anti-abortion activists and lead to open season on abortion providers? Does the Justice Department plan to file charges against Roeder under federal statutes guaranteeing access to clinics? And what does it portend for the unfolding case itself and the inevitable legal challenges to the nation's abortion laws?

Hern, the doctor in Colorado, said it's irrelevant that Wilbert won't decide until after the defense presents its evidence whether to allow jurors to actually consider a conviction on the lesser charge.

"The damage is done: The judge has agreed to give him a platform," Hern said. "It is an act of incomprehensible stupidity on the part of the judge, but he is carrying out the will of the people of Kansas who are trying to get out of the 19th century."

The Feminist Majority Foundation also denounced the ruling, saying Wilbert essentially was allowing a justifiable homicide defense. The group urged the Justice Department to file federal charges under the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act.

Justice Department spokesman Alejandro Miyar declined to comment, citing an ongoing investigation.

The Rev. Don Spitz of Chesapeake, Va., who runs a Web site supporting violence against abortion providers, said he and other activists from the Army of God plan to quietly observe the court proceedings.

"I am flabbergasted, but in a good way," Spitz said of the judge's decision.

Spitz acknowledged Wilbert's decision may influence some people who in the past wouldn't kill abortion providers because they risked a sentence of death or life imprisonment. "It may increase the number of people who may be willing to take that risk," he said.

In Des Moines, Iowa, militant anti-abortion activist Dave Leach agreed the decision opens the door to presenting the same evidence as in a case of justifiable homicide. It was Leach who wrote the 104-page legal brief Roeder signed and submitted to the court in which he admitted killing Tiller.

"The closer we come to a court actually addressing these issues, the less danger abortionists are going to be in," Leach said.

[CatherineM]

That is going to be an interesting court case.

[AccountDeleted]

It is very sad that he killed to save a life. I wonder if it was "premeditated" in execution or if he just lost control at some point because abortion has affected him personally in some way?

Some abortion doctors and operators have repented of what they do and had a conversion experience, and then done a lot of good helping others to see the evil of abortion. It would just be so sad if this sent a message to anyone that it is good to kill those who are involved in the evil of abortion as a means to stop abortion.

I pray for this man's soul, and for the soul of the person he killed, and for all those poor babies. What a disaster and great evil abortion is.

Evil just leads to more evil.

[Winchester]

[quote name='nunsense' date='12 January 2010 - 09:12 PM' timestamp='1263348758' post='2035742']

Evil just leads to more evil. [/quote]
Sometimes it leads to Pittsburgh.

[Happy_Catholic]

This is definitely going to be an interesting case!

But as for abortion, violence only begets more violence. Those people kill children for a living, they practice a violence so grievous it cannot be justified. To have a job where you kill or assist in killing children you have to be mentally, emotionally and spiritually damaged. Its not normal.

Its only logical that such a violence will attract the violence of other individuals also emotionally and mentally unstable.

[Lil Red]

+JMJ+
"Help women"? *snort* not likely.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Winchester' date='12 January 2010 - 10:24 PM' timestamp='1263349483' post='2035749']
Sometimes it leads to Pittsburgh.
[/quote]

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Happy_Catholic' date='12 January 2010 - 10:44 PM' timestamp='1263354299' post='2035802']
This is definitely going to be an interesting case!

But as for abortion, violence only begets more violence. Those people kill children for a living, they practice a violence so grievous it cannot be justified. To have a job where you kill or assist in killing children you have to be mentally, emotionally and spiritually damaged. Its not normal.

Its only logical that such a violence will attract the violence of other individuals also emotionally and mentally unstable.
[/quote]

Do you think Roeder was emotionally or mentally unstable?

~Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='nunsense' date='12 January 2010 - 09:12 PM' timestamp='1263348758' post='2035742']
Some abortion doctors and operators have repented of what they do and had a conversion experience, and then done a lot of good helping others to see the evil of abortion. It would just be so sad if this sent a message to anyone that it is good to kill those who are involved in the evil of abortion as a means to stop abortion.
[/quote]

Let me rephrase this.

[quote]Some [s]abortion doctors[/s] serial killers (real doctors treat medical problems: they don't kill people) and [s]operators[/s] assistant killers have repented of what they do and had a conversion experience, and then done a lot of good helping others to see the evil of abortion. It would just be so sad if this sent a message to anyone that it is good to kill those who are involved in the evil of [s]abortion[/s] murder as a means to stop [s]abortion[/s] murder.[/quote]

It is well that some have had conversion experiences. The fact is, stopping such people from murdering babies, through such means is moral. A murderer forefeits his own life. Are you denying that that man was a murderer? You might see it as sad that someone has to kill a State-subsidized, State-protected serial killer in order to stop his "lawful" bloody rampage. I do, too.

Now, is it as effective as other means of stopping abortion? Can you remedy a sick culture in the [i]long run [/i]by merely removing the [i]side-effects[/i] of that culture? I do not believe so.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 13, 2010 by Sternhauser

[CatherineM]

I really dislike it when people on Phatmass even make the slightest suggestion that killing abortion doctors is okay. This is an open forum. People come here to learn about Catholicism. That shouldn't be the impression we leave. Plus, this kind of talk can be viewed as terroristic, and I'd hate for Phatmass to be targeted by the powers that be because of it.

[AccountDeleted]

Thank you CatherineM - It is very distressing to read such things from those who consider themselves disciples of Jesus. That is promoting anarchy and vigilanteism (sp?). Serial killers who are caught, are given a trial before being judged. those who work in abortion clinics are not breaking the law (unfortunately) and simply do not realize that what they are doing is morally wrong. They have not been tried or found guilty of any crime, so no one has any right to pronounce sentence on them and/or to execute them. Yes, they are wrong in what they are doing, but the evil they do is through ignorance more than anything else. What a greater evil to kill them knowing that this is a crime and a moral wrong!

Jesus did not say to God, "Dear Father, please kill all these people who are crucifying me because they are committing an evil act and deserve it!" He gave us an example of how to handle injustice, especially when "they know not what they are doing".

I am just so disappointed that a Catholic would even write such horrible things.

[dairygirl4u2c]

the only one's who are questionable in their 'christian' status, are those that- out of hand- say that killing tiller was wrong. that's the expected response, even the one i at first gave... but it's unchrisitan to stop there. id say it's probably unchrisitan to say his killing was wrong after reflection... but im trying to give the benefit of the doubt. though, it's almost like giving the benefit of the doubt to the people of germany for not killing hitler or mengala- that guy that did brutesque procedures on people during WWII just for the sake of it essentially. i mean, maybe it doesn't stop babies from dying? it sounds like it has... even the proaborts admit it.

there's a long and interesting thread on this, if anyone wants to read more on it.

i have even more stronger words to share... but given this is probably some people's first impression of the issue... i wont share it at this point.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='14 January 2010 - 09:42 AM' timestamp='1263422537' post='2036475']
the only one's who are questionable in their 'christian' status, are those that- out of hand- say that killing tiller was wrong. that's the expected response, even the one i at first gave... but it's unchrisitan to stop there. id say it's probably unchrisitan to say his killing was wrong after reflection... but im trying to give the benefit of the doubt. though, it's almost like giving the benefit of the doubt to the people of germany for not killing hitler or mengala- that guy that did brutesque procedures on people during WWII just for the sake of it essentially. i mean, maybe it doesn't stop babies from dying? it sounds like it has... even the proaborts admit it.

there's a long and interesting thread on this, if anyone wants to read more on it.

i have even more stronger words to share... but given this is probably some people's first impression of the issue... i wont share it at this point.
[/quote]


If we start killing everyone we think deserves it, without any trials, then we are no better than serial killers themselves. Evil is not the solution to evil.

[Happy_Catholic]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='13 January 2010 - 10:03 AM' timestamp='1263395034' post='2036135']
Do you think Roeder was emotionally or mentally unstable?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Both.

People with normal mental health and who are emotionally stable don't walk up to a "church" and blast the brains of an abortionist all over the steps in front of his wife and congregation. Not to mention the guy threatened another usher.

[Happy_Catholic]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='13 January 2010 - 11:43 AM' timestamp='1263401008' post='2036174']
I really dislike it when people on Phatmass even make the slightest suggestion that killing abortion doctors is okay. This is an open forum. People come here to learn about Catholicism. That shouldn't be the impression we leave. Plus, this kind of talk can be viewed as terroristic, and I'd hate for Phatmass to be targeted by the powers that be because of it.
[/quote]

I've been on other abortion forums where it was rumoured the FIB were checking out due to certain comments pretaining to illegal activities.

But what really chills me about all this "let's kill abortionists" passive agressive commentary is the likes of Dr. Bernard Nathanson. He claimed to have preformed at least 60,000 abortions. Yet, he found Christ and repented and is now one of the most powerful spokespeople the unborn child has!

Tiller could have repented. He could have been provided those unborn children with a powerful advocate. But instead some moron murdered him. What's sad abotu this, is while only God and Tiller know for sure, Tiller died in a serious state of mortal sin, and as a "christian" he was supposed to know better. Chances are high he's in a very hot place right now.

People who kill abortionists, aren't just killing their mortal lives.