What Do Catholics Believe In Accordance With Evolution?

[havok579257]

[quote name='DanielNicholas' date='12 January 2010 - 12:54 AM' timestamp='1263275680' post='2035245']
No movement or other phenomenon of the sun was registered by scientists at the time.[sup][url="#cite_note-heart-1"][size="2"][color="#002bb8"][2][/color][/size][/url][/sup] According to contemporary reports from poet Afonso Lopes Vieira and schoolteacher Delfina Lopes with her students and other witnesses in the town of Alburita, the solar phenomenon were visible from up to forty kilometers away. Despite these assertions, not all witnesses reported seeing the sun "dance". Some people only saw the radiant colors, and others, including some believers, saw nothing at all.[url=""][sup][size="2"][color="#002bb8"][10][/color][/size][size="2"][color="#002bb8"][11[/color][/size][/sup][/url]No movement or other phenomenon of the sun was registered by scientists at the time.[url="#cite_note-heart-1"][size="2"][color="#002bb8"][sup][2][/sup][/color][/size][/url] According to contemporary reports from poet Afonso Lopes Vieira and schoolteacher Delfina Lopes with her students and other witnesses in the town of Alburita, the solar phenomenon were visible from up to forty kilometers away. Despite these assertions, not all witnesses reported seeing the sun "dance". Some people only saw the radiant colors, and others, including some believers, saw nothing at all.[url=""][sup][u][size="2"][color="#002bb8"][10][11[/color][/size][/u][/sup][/url]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima#Miracle_of_the_Sun"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima#Miracle_of_the_Sun[/url]

I don't believe it happened, thousands of people have claimed to see UFO's, the Lochness Monster, etc. Including the fact that some Catholics didn't see the sun change or dance.
[/quote]


Cause scientists don't lie. That whole global warming thing? Not referrencing this post, but it is funny that you put your faith in a bunch of scientist who can and do lie and who can and do make mistakes.

[havok579257]

[quote name='DanielNicholas' date='12 January 2010 - 12:22 AM' timestamp='1263273736' post='2035224']
Galileo had no proof his theory was correct? (Well to be considered a theory it requires evidence in the first place, otherwise it would be referred to as a hypothesus.)

I seriously, seriously doubt he had no proof. The Ancient Greeks and Arabs (After the arrival of Muhammad, Muhammad thought the Earth was flat) knew the Earth was spherical and measured how large this spherical Earth was based on measurements calculated from the shadows of the sun.
[/quote]


So you seriously, seriously doubt he had no proof? Although you have no facts to back this up. So we are just supposed to take you at your word here. If your going to argue something as fact, then have some sources to back up your point. Not just you saying you seriously, seriously doubt something.

[havok579257]

[quote name='DanielNicholas' date='12 January 2010 - 12:24 AM' timestamp='1263273886' post='2035226']
Intelligent design has nothing to do with evolution, It has been consistently show than you complex structure such as eyes, hearts, can be formed by small evolutionairy changes. It does not require a 'designer'. It's random in an essence, however it's not random?
[/quote]

But it has not been shown how something can exist from nothing, which is what popular athiets would have us believe. That there was nothing. Then some nothing and nothing came together and created something whic created something else which eventually, my sheer magic created humans. The probobility that, that happened is zero since nothing can not create something.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='DanielNicholas' date='12 January 2010 - 04:33 PM' timestamp='1263274410' post='2035231']
I'm sort of convinced the bible does speak of a geocentric universe. It does often refer to the Earth has fixed, it can't be moved.

And in one bible story I read God had "froze the sun in the sky for a whole day".

But that would be impossible, because the Earth is spinning at 500 metres a second, and it's revolving around the sun at 30km per second.

If the Earth stopped suddenly (to make the sun appear frozen in the sky), wouldn't the sudden change of inertia throw everyone into spaces at hundreds of kilometres an hour?

Not to mention catastrophic changes to tidal systems and birds would fall out of the sky?
[/quote]


And yet we can believe in resurrection from the dead and a virgin birth? God is all powerful and can do anything. That is not to say that He does just play around with nature like that - the ancient people couldn't always interpret what was really happening (any more than we can), but God can do anything He wants, anytime He wants.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='11 January 2010 - 03:32 PM' timestamp='1263241963' post='2034968']
however Galileo had no proof his theory was correct.
[/quote]

You are correct to say that Galileo had no "proof" that his theory was correct, in the sense that he could not "prove" it beyond doubt. Then again, nothing in science is ever "proven" to be true, only demonstrated to be untrue. Galileo, while he may not have had "proof", did have evidence that supported his theory. But, Galileo could not answer the largest objection against his theory, an objection that was first put forward by Aristotle long before Galileo. So, while there was evidence in support of his theory, there was also evidence that contradicted his theory. Despite ambiguous evidence, Galileo wanted to proclaim heliocentrism as fact, rather than theory. So, it was Galileo who wanted to proclaim dogma without supporting evidence; it was the Church who wanted to defend scientific dialog.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='11 January 2010 - 12:05 AM' timestamp='1263186331' post='2034424']
The Galilei affair is not as cut and dry as many would have you believe. See the wikipedia article for more detail (or the citations, rather, if you'd like), but the to-be Pope Urban the VIII was a fan of his, and upon his election to the papacy, even authorised him to publish his work on heliocentricism. There was miscommunication, though, and he was eventually persecuted; this, however, was more because the book was viewed as a personal attack against the pope.
[/quote]

Miscommunication? Bellarmine said Galileo was preaching bald-faced [i]heresy[/i]. Plenty of others said the same about the proponents of [i]any[/i] form of evolution. A lot of folks around here have joined Bellarmine in being wrong in [i]precisely[/i] the same way about voluntaryism.

"But to want to affirm that the sun really is fixed in the center of the heavens and only revolves around itself without traveling from east to west, and that the earth is situated in the third sphere and revolves with great speed around the sun, is a very dangerous thing, not only by [b]irritating all the philosophers and scholastic theologians, but also by injuring our holy faith and rendering the Holy Scriptures false[/b]. . . .

I say that, as you know,[b] the Council [of Trent] prohibits expounding the Scriptures contrary to the common agreement of the holy Fathers.[/b] [b]And if Your Reverence would read not only the Fathers but also the commentaries of modern writers on Genesis, Psalms, Ecclesiastes and Josue, you would find that all agree in explaining literally ([i]ad litteram[/i])that the sun is in the heavens and moves swiftly around the earth, and that the earth is far from the heavens and stands immobile in the center of the universe. . . [/b].

But with regard to the sun and the earth, no wise man is needed to correct[b] the error,[/b] since he [b]clearly[/b] experiences that the earth stands still and that [b]his eye is not deceived when it judges that the moon and stars move.[/b]"

--St.Robert Bellarmine to Carmelite Paolo Foscarini, in response to Foscarini's letter trying to explain to Bellarmine that Galileo's ideas were not, in fact, heretical.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 12, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='DanielNicholas' date='12 January 2010 - 01:46 AM' timestamp='1263278808' post='2035268']
LOL you're so funny, of course the sun makes wet people dry.

Without the sun the water wouldn't evaporate.
[/quote]

Have you ever seen mud . . . real mud . . . WWI-trench-type mud, as well as waterlogged clothes, become completely dry in 5 minutes in the sun?

~Sternhauser

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='12 January 2010 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1263308466' post='2035335']
Miscommunication? Bellarmine said Galileo was preaching bald-faced [i]heresy[/i]. Plenty of others said the same about the proponents of [i]any[/i] form of evolution. A lot of folks around here have joined Bellarmine in being wrong in [i]precisely[/i] the same way about voluntaryism.

"But to want to affirm that the sun really is fixed in the center of the heavens and only revolves around itself without traveling from east to west, and that the earth is situated in the third sphere and revolves with great speed around the sun, is a very dangerous thing, not only by [b]irritating all the philosophers and scholastic theologians, but also by injuring our holy faith and rendering the Holy Scriptures false[/b]. . . .

I say that, as you know,[b] the Council [of Trent] prohibits expounding the Scriptures contrary to the common agreement of the holy Fathers.[/b] [b]And if Your Reverence would read not only the Fathers but also the commentaries of modern writers on Genesis, Psalms, Ecclesiastes and Josue, you would find that all agree in explaining literally ([i]ad litteram[/i])that the sun is in the heavens and moves swiftly around the earth, and that the earth is far from the heavens and stands immobile in the center of the universe. . . [/b].

But with regard to the sun and the earth, no wise man is needed to correct[b] the error,[/b] since he [b]clearly[/b] experiences that the earth stands still and that [b]his eye is not deceived when it judges that the moon and stars move.[/b]"

--St.Robert Bellarmine to Carmelite Paolo Foscarini, in response to Foscarini's letter trying to explain to Bellarmine that Galileo's ideas were not, in fact, heretical.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


Bellarmine and "plenty of others" aren't the magisterium of the Church.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='DanielNicholas' date='12 January 2010 - 02:46 AM' timestamp='1263278808' post='2035268']
LOL you're so funny, of course the sun makes wet people dry.

Without the sun the water wouldn't evaporate.
[/quote]
Lol you are funny too, how many times has the sun dried up all the rain after days of pouring in 5 minutes ? Only once - at Fatima. :)And again - you miss the point about the scientists not recording it - it wasn't a world wide phenomena - it was a localized event to prove a point - God is in charge. So if it had been picked up by scientists some distance I would have been very surprised, and a natural cause would have seemed far more likely.

[Winchester]

Don't ask a question if you don't want the answer. Be honest and title your threads as accusations if that's what they're going to be.

[CrossCuT]

I think alot of the issues with evolution stem around what we are acctually talking about. Are we talking about evolution as a science? Or the ideology that claims evolution disproves the existance of God?

I think alot of Catholics are stuck on the latter because it is so often used in that context. However we have to understand that in no way does the science of evolution prove or support any type of spiritual conclusions because it cant.

I will be the first to admit to you that while I am a Catholic, I do believe in the science of evolution.
I do not see any contradictions between it and my faith and I honestly dont believe there are any.

Edited January 12, 2010 by CrossCuT

[thessalonian]

Science that is true will not conflict with religion that is true. Science that is based on limited date (extra species evolution) treated as fact, rather than theory, will inevitably come in to conflict with true religion. Religion that is bassed on a poor understanding of scripture and tradition (Augustine for instance recognized that the 6 days in scripture is likely symbolic) will conflict with science. Galileo got in to theology in some of his theories and this got him in trouble as well it should. One of Pope Benedicts books that I have at home goes in to some quotes of Galeleo's that were theologically in error. If I remember I will look them up. The Church does not make definitive rulings on science. Some may state there opinions.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='12 January 2010 - 09:01 AM' timestamp='1263308466' post='2035335']
Miscommunication? Bellarmine said Galileo was preaching bald-faced [i]heresy[/i]. Plenty of others said the same about the proponents of [i]any[/i] form of evolution. A lot of folks around here have joined Bellarmine in being wrong in [i]precisely[/i] the same way about voluntaryism.

"But to want to affirm that the sun really is fixed in the center of the heavens and only revolves around itself without traveling from east to west, and that the earth is situated in the third sphere and revolves with great speed around the sun, is a very dangerous thing, not only by [b]irritating all the philosophers and scholastic theologians, but also by injuring our holy faith and rendering the Holy Scriptures false[/b]. . . .

I say that, as you know,[b] the Council [of Trent] prohibits expounding the Scriptures contrary to the common agreement of the holy Fathers.[/b] [b]And if Your Reverence would read not only the Fathers but also the commentaries of modern writers on Genesis, Psalms, Ecclesiastes and Josue, you would find that all agree in explaining literally ([i]ad litteram[/i])that the sun is in the heavens and moves swiftly around the earth, and that the earth is far from the heavens and stands immobile in the center of the universe. . . [/b].

But with regard to the sun and the earth, no wise man is needed to correct[b] the error,[/b] since he [b]clearly[/b] experiences that the earth stands still and that [b]his eye is not deceived when it judges that the moon and stars move.[/b]"

--St.Robert Bellarmine to Carmelite Paolo Foscarini, in response to Foscarini's letter trying to explain to Bellarmine that Galileo's ideas were not, in fact, heretical.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

+1 for St. Robert Bellarmine