Winchester Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 [quote name='BG45' date='10 January 2010 - 06:09 PM' timestamp='1263164959' post='2034162'] Blaming the victim? [/quote] Indulging in bizarre individualism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 [quote name='BG45' date='10 January 2010 - 06:09 PM' timestamp='1263164959' post='2034162'] Blaming the victim? [/quote] Victim? She knew the laws, she chose to go there, in the same way that any act of aggression the State does to you is justified, because you [i]could[/i] have left. How is she the victim, by that "logic?" ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='10 January 2010 - 06:12 PM' timestamp='1263165140' post='2034166'] Victim? She knew the laws, she chose to go there, in the same way that any act of aggression the State does to you is justified, because you [i]could[/i] have left. How is she the victim, by that "logic?" ~Sternhauser [/quote] Just like the woman who wears provocative clothing "deserves" to be raped, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 Hijacks are supposed to be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='10 January 2010 - 07:12 PM' timestamp='1263165140' post='2034166'] Victim? She knew the laws, she chose to go there, in the same way that any act of aggression the State does to you is justified, because you [i]could[/i] have left. How is she the victim, by that "logic?" ~Sternhauser [/quote] I fail to see where your logic dictates that a woman went to a nation and therefore deserves to be raped by and imprisoned for the sexual assault committed upon her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 (edited) [quote name='BG45' date='10 January 2010 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1263165591' post='2034174'] I fail to see where your logic dictates that a woman went to a nation and therefore deserves to be raped by and imprisoned for the sexual assault committed upon her. [/quote] [i]My[/i] logic doesn't. Yours would. I fail to see [i]why[/i] your logic dictates that a man who stays within political borders of a State deserves to have his money taken by force or the threat of force, and can justly be imprisoned if he refuses, and justly killed if he resists imprisonment. ~Sternhauser Edited January 10, 2010 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 Quit pretending that supporting just authority is also support of tyranny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 There was a case recently where a woman was put into prison for the minor prank of taking a tea towel from a restaurant. At first this appears to be that the punishment was excessive for the crime, but reading between the lines, the woman was drunk and no doubt was rude to the staff and also to the police when they were called. It's not hard to imagine an Asian police officer getting really cut when a Caucasian woman talks down to them. In an ideal world a woman should be able to go anywhere in provocative dress and be drunk and not be raped. However it does not take a rocket scientist to know that this will not be the case. Also people travelling to foreign countries should take a certain amount of responsibility for their own safety. Even Western countries have unjust laws to a certain extent. Because of their strict laws, Muslim countries have even more unjust laws. Women travelling to such countries should make themselves aware of this or someone should advise them to take some care and that they cannot necessarily do things that they would be free to do in their own countries. The short answer is 'She was treated unjustly and appallingly' but to a small extent she may or may not, depending on unknown factors, have to accept a certain amount of the blame. When I was teaching in East Timor I was worried because there are people who are insanely jealous of us white people especially when they know you are teaching teenage girls. I was worried that if someone took a dislike to me, they could frame me as a child molester or something. Maybe I was being a little paranoid, but conditions in the Salesian residence were bad enough, never mind about being locked up with thugs in an Asian gaol. So I was careful never to be alone with any child and to keep my distance. Personally I wouldn't feel at home or have much desire to go to a non Christian country because I like to share my Christianity with other Christians and learn and be inspired by them and hopefully they may see Jesus in me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 January 2010 - 04:21 PM' timestamp='1263154887' post='2034061']The victim is punished for being raped. How absolutely disgusting. Unfortunately, I am not surprised.[/quote] To be clear, she is being punished for sharing a hotel room with a man she is not married to and drinking alcohol, both of which are illegal in Dubai. They are 'conveniently' not following up on the rape charge, because apparently, that is not important (to them). She is not being 'punished for being raped' (at least, not in their eyes). A woman in my state was beaten by her boyfriend after a party. She drove herself to the police station while intoxicated to report him. Not surprisingly, she was arrested for drunk driving. Whether or not her bf was dealt with on domestic abuse charges, I don't know, but she can't act all surprised if she blatantly commits a crime in front of the police like that. A victim of a gunshot wound gets himself to a hospital. If he's in possession of illegal drugs at the time, the police are [i]going[/i] to follow through. Etc. This is actually not all that uncommon. Just because you're the one who called the police doesn't mean you won't be the one arrested. You may be a victim of one crime, but that doesn't make you guiltless of others. Now. For the record, I think it is [i]horrible[/i] that they are ignoring the rape and not treating it as a crime. Even if they are going to enforce their local law on her (totally within their rights, even if that does make them jerkwads), they have no business ignoring a serious crime and pretending it didn't happen. Because if it was illegal for her to have sex with her fiance in their hotel room, it was [i]certainly[/i] illegal for that man to corner her in the bathroom and rape her. Illegal for [i]him[/i], not just her. But, yeah, UAE - not exactly a country where women are treated with dignity and respect. This is also terrible for Dubai's international image, at a time when it is trying to convince Westerners to visit there. Fancy new building, oh so modern.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted January 11, 2010 Author Share Posted January 11, 2010 [quote name='BG45' date='10 January 2010 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1263165591' post='2034174'] I fail to see where your logic dictates that a woman went to a nation and therefore deserves to be raped by and imprisoned for the sexual assault committed upon her. [/quote] He's arguing that arbitrary civil laws are, well, arbitrary. And cases like this do a great job at exposing that fact. Yet people in any country tend to shrug and tolerate these laws. There's an unfortunate social perception that the State = authority and legal = moral. (Which reminds me, I've been meaning to read that book [i]The Lucifer Effect[/i] by Philip Zimbardo.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinytherese Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 I remember a thread from months ago where a young girl in the Middle East was gang-raped and got pregnant. Then she was sentenced to receiving lashes for it and the men were not punished at all. Now that is absolutely dispicable. The claim that if a woman is alone in such a place and deserves to be raped is absolutely horrible and not to mention bull, which I still can't fathom as to how anyone could believe such a thing. I agree with MithLuin though that what the woman did was illegal, but that the rapist should definitely be punished as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted January 11, 2010 Author Share Posted January 11, 2010 [quote name='Winchester' date='10 January 2010 - 06:42 PM' timestamp='1263166966' post='2034182'] Quit pretending that supporting just authority is also support of tyranny. [/quote] Tell me about it. If someone doesn't like the tyranny, to paraphrase Winchester, "they can go live in the wilderness. This is the problem with [s]democracy[/s] monarchy --you people get the idea your personal opinions matter." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 [quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='10 January 2010 - 08:17 PM' timestamp='1263172675' post='2034218'] Tell me about it. If someone doesn't like the tyranny, to paraphrase Winchester, "they can go live in the wilderness. This is the problem with [s]democracy[/s] monarchy --you people get the idea your personal opinions matter." [/quote] Not used in context to support tyranny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeenanParkerII Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Obviously, it's unethical and immoral, but before travelling internationally it's pretty standard fair that everyone receives a package (at least in Canada)which explains the laws, customs, political situation, and local biases of wherever your travelling from their travel agent. If you choose to ignore it, you may end up in a bad situation. A white woman going and getting tanked in a middle Eastern country under religious law...? International travelers need to exercise common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='10 January 2010 - 06:22 PM' timestamp='1263165736' post='2034177'] [i]My[/i] logic doesn't. Yours would. I fail to see [i]why[/i] your logic dictates that a man who stays within political borders of a State deserves to have his money taken by force or the threat of force, and can justly be imprisoned if he refuses, and justly killed if he resists imprisonment. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Or he could revolt and quit whining like a little girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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