Thread Derails... Aids, Popes And Condoms

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Happy_Catholic' date='09 January 2010 - 02:59 AM' timestamp='1263023953' post='2033142']

I won't judge a married couple who use a condom to protect one of the spouses from the other's HIV infection, but I think the best way to prevent HIV infection is to push faithfulness in marriage and abstienance before hand.
[/quote]

"Sex" with a condom is nothing more than mutual masturbation. Where do you find any support for the notion that it is morally acceptable to engage in "sexual" activity when either of the natural ends of sexual intercourse are frustrated?

~Sternhauser

[Jaime]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='09 January 2010 - 09:33 AM' timestamp='1263047598' post='2033192']
"Sex" with a condom is nothing more than mutual masturbation. Where do you find any support for the notion that it is morally acceptable to engage in "sexual" activity when either of the natural ends of sexual intercourse are frustrated?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Actually the vatican is studying the role of condoms with married couples where one is HIV positive. They haven't released the results of this study yet.

[jkaands]

[quote name='philbo' date='08 January 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1262987127' post='2032667']
Countries where abstinence was & is a cultural trait have lower levels of HIV infection - that's kind of inevitable; where sex has been part of the culture, HIV is prevalent.

It's the latter where condom use has been most "aggressively" promoted, 'cause that's where it's most needed - the stats bear that out. The biggest problem is behavioral and regarding attitude - actually getting the men to use a condom. After all, all other things being equal (like ignoring STDs and pregnancy.. minor life events like that), wouldn't you prefer non-rubber-coated sex? This is what the people on the ground in those most affected areas are reporting - you can give a guy as many condoms as you like, but it doesn't make him wear them. Which is why the message that wearing a condom is a bad thing, well, is a bad thing.[/quote]

Um,[i] what country[/i] is promoting abstinence to the exclusion of condoms or other barrier contraception?

Bush's administration tried to do this, but his funds, --millions-- were turned down or the programs discontinued when the states discovered how massively the programs failed.

Subs-Saharan (not Muslim) Africa does not have a tradition of virginity, abstinence or fidelity in marriage. Both boys and girls, but particularly boys, have sex early and often. Many men have sex on the road, infecting their wives and through births of infected mothers, their children. It is a complete waste to promote abstinence among countries who do not have this anywhere in their traditions, to the exclusion of barrier and gel contraception, male circumcision and HPV vaccination (to deter cervical cancer, which is an STD). Condoms work in these countries to decrease the spread of HIV and AIDS. Male circumcision works too, to decrease the spread of STD's in general, and is now being promoted widely. The HPV vaccine is shown to be very well tolerated and effective in the US and will also enter widespread use.

[jkaands]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 January 2010 - 03:18 PM' timestamp='1262985511' post='2032629']
I apologize for the docu-dump, but the bibliography is crucial.




Furthermore it is a fact which can be looked up by anybody that the countries most aggressively promoting condom use have the highest infection rates of HIV. The opposite is true for countries promoting abstinence.
[/quote]

Please cite the [i]source[/i] of this article.

The countries in Africa with the lowest STD and HIV rates are in Muslim Africa. I, for one, would not like to live in countries with a 14th century moral code, and when the rights of both men and women, but especially women, are severely restricted.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='09 January 2010 - 11:32 AM' timestamp='1263054770' post='2033211']
Actually the vatican is studying the role of condoms with married couples where one is HIV positive. They haven't released the results of this study yet.
[/quote]

The Vatican studies many contemporary questions in order to make a clear and thorough declaration against the proponents of certain ideas. I'll bet you a positive point (worthless, I know) that the study's concluding document will say something to the effect of "While the ambition to prevent the spouse from acquiring a potentially lethal disease is admirable, the means proposed would prevent the sexual act from conforming to the ends of marriage. Though the intent of those couples would be the prevention of disease, and not the prevention of conception, the deliberate use of an article which frustrates either or both of the unitive or procreative ends of the sexual act, whether this effect is willed or not, renders the use of such an article unacceptable."

~Sternhauser

Edited January 9, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='jkaands' date='09 January 2010 - 11:34 AM' timestamp='1263058480' post='2033235']
Please cite the [i]source[/i] of this article.

The countries in Africa with the lowest STD and HIV rates are in Muslim Africa. I, for one, would not like to live in countries with a 14th century moral code, and when the rights of both men and women, but especially women, are severely restricted.
[/quote]
It was actually an open letter. I forget to whom it was addressed.

The authors listed at the bottom are legitimate though.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[Jaime]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='09 January 2010 - 01:14 PM' timestamp='1263060886' post='2033262']
The Vatican studies many contemporary questions in order to make a clear and thorough declaration against the proponents of certain ideas. I'll bet you a positive point (worthless, I know) that the document will say something to the effect of "While the ambition to prevent the spouse from acquiring a potentially lethal disease is admirable, the means proposed would prevent the sexual act from conforming to the ends of marriage. Though the intent of those couples would be the prevention of disease, and not the prevention of conception, the deliberate use of an article which frustrates either or both of the unitive or procreative ends of the sexual act, whether this effect is willed or not, renders the use of such an article unacceptable."

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

The Vatican might say that. However it is interesting that it is being studied.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='09 January 2010 - 01:45 PM' timestamp='1263062749' post='2033295']
The Vatican might say that. However it is interesting that it is being studied.
[/quote]

To say that the Vatican is studying a question does not mean that it is deciding whether or not to allow a certain action.

~Sternhauser

[Jaime]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='09 January 2010 - 01:50 PM' timestamp='1263063057' post='2033302']
To say that the Vatican is studying a question does not mean that it is deciding whether or not to allow a certain action.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Actually yeah that's exactly what it means.

The committee of theologians is studying the ethical and moral nature of married couples using condoms to protect one partner from becoming HIV positive. So is it possible that the Church might allow for this? Yeah its possible. I doubt its probable but the intent of the study is to make a recommendation.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='09 January 2010 - 01:54 PM' timestamp='1263063261' post='2033307']
Actually yeah that's exactly what it means.

The committee of theologians is studying the ethical and moral nature of married couples using condoms to protect one partner from becoming HIV positive. So is it possible that the Church might allow for this? Yeah its possible. I doubt its probable but the intent of the study is to make a recommendation.
[/quote]

It's studying the ethical and moral nature. Is studying the ethical and moral nature of murder a prelude to "murder might be acceptable?"

~Sternhauser

[Jaime]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='09 January 2010 - 02:45 PM' timestamp='1263066359' post='2033336']
It's studying the ethical and moral nature. Is studying the ethical and moral nature of murder a prelude to "murder might be acceptable?"

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

I get wanting to be obtuse sometimes. I really do. But you're picking the wrong one to get all "obtusey" about. The theologians are really going to make a recommendation at the conclusion of their study. Is it highly likely that they will come back with "Its immoral even if one spouse is infected with HIV"? Yeah that one's probably even money. But It means they are considering the alternative.

[Happy_Catholic]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='09 January 2010 - 09:33 AM' timestamp='1263047598' post='2033192']
"Sex" with a condom is nothing more than mutual masturbation. Where do you find any support for the notion that it is morally acceptable to engage in "sexual" activity when either of the natural ends of sexual intercourse are frustrated?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

I said "I won't judge" not that what they're doing isn't morally debase.

Part of me thinks the Church should keep the no birth control policy, period. No exceptions. And that those married couples where one is infected with HIV or whatever, that obviously that couple is called to bear a heavy cross.

Yet another part of me thinks it to be rather irresponsible for them not to engage in sexual relations without protection. What if they have children? Should those children be left orphans because the Church tells the couple they cannot use a condom to protect the well one from the HIV infection of the other?

Abstience should always be first and foremost, even if it is in the confines of marriage where one carries a potentially fatal and infectious ill. But what should be, and how things work out are always two different things.

I mean, blow me down, there are a lot of healthy catholics using birth control. I think the Church should be nagging them on the spiritual bankruptcy that causes as opposed to cursing those who are in a one heck of a horrible situation.

[MithLuin]

[b]jkaands[/b], you asked which country was using that policy?

Uganda used an ABC approach.

1) Abstinence
2) Be faithful
3) Condoms

What this means is that you promote abstinence among young and unmarried people. You also promote faithfulness to one's spouse. And yes, you distribute condoms to prostitutes and truck drivers and others who are obviously not buying into the first two methods.

But yes, culturally, use of condoms is [i]very[/i] difficult to encourage/enforce, so any approach to how the AIDS epidemic is dealt with [i]cannot[/i] just be "use condoms" - because that will not actually cut down the spread of HIV.

You are also correct that circumcised males are [i]much[/i] less likely to catch the disease from an HIV+ woman. And, possibly, she may be a little less likely to catch it from him. (Circumcision would not prevent males from getting HIV from anal intercourse, which has a higher risk of HIV transmission than vaginal intercourse). But the same WHO study that determined the chance of partners catching HIV from each other. also determined that even with training in the importance of using condoms, only 10% of couples were using them with any consistency - [i]and this was when they knew their spouse was HIV+[/i]. I imagine the usage rates are even more abysmal if the sex is more casual.

If the Catholic Church were doing nothing to combat AIDS, the outrage would be appropriate. That we aren't promoting one of the less effective methods...when plenty of other people are.... Well, what's the problem, again? Abstinence and fidelity are the [i]best[/i] ways of preventing the spread of AIDS. While these methods are not necessarily culturally popular, changing [i]that[/i] is an important thing to do. There are lots of condoms available in African nations these days. They're available in Europe, too, where people tend to be angry at the pope's stance on them.

Edited January 10, 2010 by MithLuin

[philbo]

[quote name='jkaands' date='09 January 2010 - 06:31 PM' timestamp='1263058266' post='2033233']
Um,[i] what country[/i] is promoting abstinence to the exclusion of condoms or other barrier contraception?
[/quote]
er.. none, that I am aware of - the only people AFAICT who are doing this (i.e. promoting abstinence to the exclusion of barrier contraception) are Catholics.


[quote name='jkaands' date='09 January 2010 - 06:31 PM' timestamp='1263058266' post='2033233']
Subs-Saharan (not Muslim) Africa does not have a tradition of virginity, abstinence or fidelity in marriage. Both boys and girls, but particularly boys, have sex early and often. Many men have sex on the road, infecting their wives and through births of infected mothers, their children. It is a complete waste to promote abstinence among countries who do not have this anywhere in their traditions, to the exclusion of barrier and gel contraception, male circumcision and HPV vaccination (to deter cervical cancer, which is an STD). Condoms work in these countries to decrease the spread of HIV and AIDS. Male circumcision works too, to decrease the spread of STD's in general, and is now being promoted widely. The HPV vaccine is shown to be very well tolerated and effective in the US and will also enter widespread use.
[/quote]
I'd not disagree with any of that.. though others in this thread have.


Though none of those has seen fit to see or argue the starting assertion that I made [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=101767&view=findpost&p=2033189"]here[/url]: that condoms do reduce dramatically the odds of transmission of HIV/other STDs for each sexual act in which they are appropriately used. I thought that was an easy one to start with.


[quote name='MithLuin' date='10 January 2010 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1263142603' post='2033957']
[b]jkaands[/b], you asked which country was using that policy?

Uganda used an ABC approach.

1) Abstinence
2) Be faithful
3) Condoms
[/quote]
jkaands actually asked which country was using abstinence [i]to the exclusion of condoms or other barrier contraception - [/i]which I think is kind of covered by point 3 above.

I don't believe any country or organization has said "go forth and multiply" (to use what seems to me to be an appropriate euphemism) as many people as you like, just make sure you wear a condom. But most people (Vatican hierarchy excluded) will realize that if you can't make the massive cultural change to ensure 1) and 2), then using condoms is a worthwhile and necessary first step to stopping people from spreading disease with every time they fornicate.

[havok579257]

[quote name='philbo' date='11 January 2010 - 05:43 AM' timestamp='1263206612' post='2034572']
er.. none, that I am aware of - the only people AFAICT who are doing this (i.e. promoting abstinence to the exclusion of barrier contraception) are Catholics.



I'd not disagree with any of that.. though others in this thread have.


Though none of those has seen fit to see or argue the starting assertion that I made [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=101767&view=findpost&p=2033189"]here[/url]: that condoms do reduce dramatically the odds of transmission of HIV/other STDs for each sexual act in which they are appropriately used. I thought that was an easy one to start with.



jkaands actually asked which country was using abstinence [i]to the exclusion of condoms or other barrier contraception - [/i]which I think is kind of covered by point 3 above.

I don't believe any country or organization has said "go forth and multiply" (to use what seems to me to be an appropriate euphemism) as many people as you like, just make sure you wear a condom. But most people (Vatican hierarchy excluded) will realize that if you can't make the massive cultural change to ensure 1) and 2), then using condoms is a worthwhile and necessary first step to stopping people from spreading disease with every time they fornicate.
[/quote]


why is it so hard for people to wait until marriage to have sex?

condoning something that is intrisically evil, is never right. condoms are intrisically evil. according to your theory, since there will always be heroin users the catholic church and governments should pass out free needles to help promote better heroin use. or since murder will never stop, the catholic church and governments should push for less restrictions and make murder more acceptable?

condoms promote people to have more premarital sex. most of hiv/aids victims get the disease outside or before marriage. so if everyone waited until marriage to have sex and only have sex with their spouse, the disease would eventually die out.