Thread Derails... Aids, Popes And Condoms

[philbo]

Seeing as [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=2032575"]this post[/url] looked like it was doing a fair job of derailing the assassination thread, I thought I'd get in there before mammas_boy came back to do it himself..

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 January 2010 - 09:16 PM' timestamp='1262981776' post='2032578']
I'm afraid that the politically correct liberal party line doesn't make us reconsider our positions either.
[/quote]
Frankly, I don't really care about political correctness, and a "liberal party line" sounds like the sort of thing an American considers an insult, but I'm afraid doesn't cut any ice, either.

Evidence, on the other hand, does. The evidence that shows that condom use reduces transmission of HIV and other STDs.


[quote name='Winchester' date='08 January 2010 - 09:32 PM' timestamp='1262982761' post='2032595']
Especiallysince you arrived at your current position only after careful in depthstudy that just happened to follow your presuppositions.


If you're going to drive drunk, wear your seatbelt.
[/quote]
Is that the sound of a pot calling the kettle black? The difference is that careful in-depth study reinforces my presuppositions rather than contradicts them.

Not that I can remember having any ingrained presuppositions when it comes (pun not intended) to condom usage - strangely enough, I don't have a religious leader telling me to use them. So who is most likely to have arrived at their position from a preconceived (again, pun not intended) position?

[quote name='MIkolbe' date='08 January 2010 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1262983026' post='2032600']
yes,because RIGHT BEFORE I fornicate with a woman other than my wife, weask ourselves, "Golly, I should wear a condom, but the Pope says no;and being faithful Catholics, we should assent to the Pope and not wearthem." Then we go fornicate.


[/quote]
While it is very likely that the sort of people who take no notice of the Pope's injunctions against abstinence will also take no notice of his views on condom usage, it doesn't help to have an international figure saying "don't use condoms", followed up by people with a religious axe to grind trying to prove that condoms [i]make things worse[/i], just to make it look like His Holiness was right all along.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='philbo' date='08 January 2010 - 02:54 PM' timestamp='1262984066' post='2032615']
Seeing as [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=2032575"]this post[/url] looked like it was doing a fair job of derailing the assassination thread, I thought I'd get in there before mammas_boy came back to do it himself..


Frankly, I don't really care about political correctness, and a "liberal party line" sounds like the sort of thing an American considers an insult, but I'm afraid doesn't cut any ice, either.

Evidence, on the other hand, does. The evidence that shows that condom use reduces transmission of HIV and other STDs.


[/quote]
I'm not American, and your evidence has been discredited.

[Varg]

By whom? Alive & Well?

[Nihil Obstat]

I apologize for the docu-dump, but the bibliography is crucial.

[quote]We consider the statements Pope Benedict XVI made on the AIDS scourge1 at the press conference granted to journalists during the papal flight en route to Yaoundé, Cameroon, realistic, reasonable and scientifically sound.

“I would say that this problem of AIDS can't be overcome only with publicity slogans. If there is not the soul, if the Africans are not helped, the scourge can't be resolved with the distribution of condoms: on the contrary, there is a risk of increasing the problem. The solution can only be found in a double commitment: first, a humanization of sexuality, that is, a spiritual and human renewal that brings with it a new way of behaving with one another; and second, a true friendship, also and above all for those who suffer, the willingness -- even with sacrifice and self-denial -- to be with the suffering. And these are the factors that help and that lead to visible progress. Because of this, I would say that this, our double effort to renew man interiorly, to give spiritual and human strength for correct behavior with regard to one's body and that of another, and this capacity to suffer with those who suffer, to remain present in situations of trial. It seems to me that this is the correct answer, and the Church does this and thus offers a very great and important contribution. We thank all those who do this.”

As Benedict XVI affirmed, there is evidence in Uganda and in most African countries that “the most efficient reality, the most present at the front of the struggle against AIDS, is precisely the Catholic Church, with her movements, with her various organizations”. There is no need of documenting the extraordinary contribution of Sr Miriam Duggan, Nsambya hospital, Kitovu hospital, Youth Alive, Meeting Point groups, Lacor hospital, Reach Out Mbuya, and many other realities of the Catholic Church to the successful response Uganda made to the epidemic.

It is equally true that as the Pope reiterated “this problem of AIDS can't be overcome only with publicity slogans”. Uganda with the leadership of President Museveni and the brave participation of the people at all levels including religious and cultural leaders, did not indulge in asking for help. Ugandans acted with a clear and determined strategy based on abstinence (delay of sexual debut) and fidelity (zero grazing). Moreover it is not even a matter of level of funding: in the crucial years when prevalence declined from 15% in 1992 to 6% in 2004, the Uganda AIDS Control Programme cost was 23 cents of dollar per person.2

Indeed the “the scourge (of AIDS) can't be resolved with the distribution of condoms: on the contrary, there is a risk of increasing the problem.”

Our experience demonstrates that the Church’s position on condom and AIDS is the most reasonable and scientifically sound for the prevention of AIDS epidemics. Uganda has a record of success in the fight against HIV/AIDS.3 4. Some went to the extent of labelling the Ugandan experience as “social vaccine”5. The comprehensive approach to prevention that would later be defined “ABC”, though initially a truly indigenous and locally developed response to the pandemic has become an inclusive evidence-based approach to prevent sexual transmission of HIV. For many years we have been part of the struggle against the disease, and we acknowledge that the Church and religion at large have had a strong impact in slowing down the spread of the epidemic, through a work of education of the youth and of the population to a responsible use of their sexuality. We know how important condoms can be in focal epidemics among high-risk-groups; there is limited or no direct evidence, however, that the common and popular prevention measures (including condom social marketing, VCT, syndromic or mass treatment of STIs) have contributed to the reduction or slowing down of HIV in generalised epidemics.6 7 8 9.

Leading scientific journals published studies showing that the major factor for the decline of prevalence of HIV in Uganda was the reduction in casual, multi-partners sex (the B of ABC). Since then, evidence for a pivotal role for partner reduction, complemented by decline in premarital sex, has emerged for more recent HIV declines in Kenya, Zimbabwe, Ethiopia and Malawi. In Uganda, Kenya, and Zambia, increases in abstinence behaviours have been associated with declines in HIV prevalence10. In Uganda the percent of youth 15 to 24 years reporting pre-marital sex in the past year declined from 53% to 16% for females and 60% to 23% for males between 1989 and 1995. 11 In Kenya, similar declines in pre-marital sexual activity in the past year were seen, from 56% to 41% for males and from 32% to 21% for females 15 to 24 years, between 1988 and 1993. 12 All successful stories in Africa have been preceded by declines in casual sex and in premarital sex, in general registered over 5-6 years before the evidence of decline.13

Again in Uganda, prevalence of HIV was lower (6.4%) among people who had never used condoms compared to 9.3% among those who had ever used condom14. Use of condom was associated with higher prevalence among both men and women. The same survey showed that the West Nile and North-eastern regions of Uganda that had the lowest prevalence of HIV (2.3% and 3.5% respectively) had some of the lowest levels of knowledge about condom in the country, some of the lowest sexual activity in the past 4 weeks (41.5% and 50.4% respectively), some of the lowest number of lifetime sexual partners (mean of 1.7 and 1.8 respectively for women and 5.2 and 4.0 respectively for men). The percent of people aged 15 to 59 engaging in “higher-risk” sex was also among the lowest in these two regions. For women it was 5.5% (the lowest) in West Nile and 8.6% in the North-east while for men it was 29.4% and 18.5% respectively. The percentage of youth aged 15-24 years who had had sex before age 15 was also among the lowest, being 9.6% and 5.2% respectively for women and 12.0% and 7.1% respectively for men. Moreover, and interestingly, HIV prevalence was lower (1.6%) among uncircumcised men than the circumcised ones (2.4%) contrary to the general picture in the country. The West Nile region is not isolated from the rest of the country, with heavy movement of people by buses and aeroplanes to and from Kampala everyday. Many people travel from the Democratic Republic of Congo and the Southern Sudan through West Nile to Kampala daily. In addition, the West Nile is one of those in a post-conflict period, having seen long post-Amin era conflict. All these point to the fact that high use of condom was not the real factor that kept prevalence of HIV low in those two regions. Rather it was behavioural.

The drivers of the changes happening in several African countries are behaviours so clearly in line with the Catholic teaching, behaviours that scientists, sociologists and cultural leaders should be working on to identify and help to preserve to help avoid HIV.

Moreover the recent levelling trends of HIV prevalence in Uganda can be attributed to the ‘moving away’ from the original and verified indigenous Ugandan strategy. There is indeed an unacceptable pressure by western experts and organisations to change the focus from the effective A and (especially) B to the debatable C. This is mainly due to the western taboo about the impossibility of changing sexual behaviour and interfering with personal behaviours. This is simply hypocrisy as in the case of smoking, alcohol and drug addiction, different approaches are implemented.

The Pope’s message should, instead of being criticised, be a wake up call to the proven realities regarding the dynamics of HIV transmission not only in Uganda but in sub Saharan Africa. After all, it is universally acknowledged that the principal driver of the epidemic in the sub region is people having multiple and concurrent sexual relationships. Any solution that does not embrace this reality and the necessary risk avoidance strategies is certainly bound to fail. We caution against an interpretation of Catholic religion and of the Pope’s teaching as prejudicially against science, because this is simply against evidence.

Sam Orach - Uganda Catholic Medical Bureau, Kampala - Uganda
George William Pariyo – Makerere University School of Public Health, Kampala – Uganda
Rose Busingye – Meeting Point International, Kampala – Uganda
Ronald Kamara – Uganda Catholic Secretariat, Kampala – Uganda
Filippo Ciantia – AVSI, Kampala – Uganda
Lawrence Ojom – St Joseph’s Hospital, Kitgum – Uganda
Thomas Odong – AVSI, Kitgum – Uganda
Joseph Lokong Adaktar - Uganda Martyrs University - Faculty of Health Sciences, Nkozi – Uganda

1 Press conference on route to Cameroon “Our Faith is Hope by definition” http://www.zenit.org/article-25405?l=english
2 Low-Beer, Daniel, 'This is a routinely avoidable disease.” Financial Times (Nov 28, 2003)
3 Edward C. Green, Daniel T. Halperin, Vinand Nantulya, and Janice A. Hogle. Uganda’s HIV Prevention Success: The Role of Sexual Behavior Change and the National Response. AIDS and Behavior 2006; Volume 10, Number 4: 347-350.
4 USAID. What happened in Uganda? – Declining HIV Prevalence, Behavior Change and National Response http://www.synergyaids.com/Documents/WhatHappenedUganda.pdf
5 Stoneburner RL, Low-Beer D. Population-level HIV declines and behavioral risk avoidance in Uganda. Science 2004; 304: 714–18.
6 Gregson S; Adamson S; Papaya S; Mundondo J; Nyamukapa CA; Mason PR; Garnett GP; Chandiwana SK; Foster G; Anderson RM. (2007) Impact and process evaluation of integrated community and clinic-based HIV-1 control: A cluster-randomised trial in eastern Zimbabwe PLOS MED. 4: 545-555; UNAIDS (1999) Trends in HIV incidence and prevalence: Natural course of the epidemic or results of behaviour change?. Geneva: UNAIDS. 36 p.; Stephenson JM, Obasi A (2004) HIV risk reduction in adolescents. Lancet 363: 1177–1178; Kamali A, Quigley M, Nakiyingi JS, Kinsman J, Kengeya-Kayondo J, et al. (2003) Syndromic management of STIs and behaviour change interventions on transmission of HIV-1 in rural Uganda: A community randomised trial. Lancet 361: 645–652; Quigley M, Kamali A, Kinsman J, Kamulegeya I, Nakiyingi JS, et al. (2004) The impact of attending a behavioural intervention on HIV incidence in Masaka, Uganda. AIDS 18: 2055–2063; Sherr L et al. Voluntary HIV testing in rural Zimbabwe - what is the uptake, impact on sexual behaviour and HIV incidence 3 years later? Third South African AIDS Conference, Durban, abstract 46, 2007; Matovu JKB et al. Voluntary HIV counselling and testing acceptance, sexual risk behaviour and HIV incidence in Rakai, Uganda. AIDS 2005, 19: 503-511; Padian NS et al. Diaphragm and lubricant gel for prevention of HIV acquisition in southern African women: a randomised controlled trial. The Lancet (online edition), July 13th, 2007; Gray RH et al. Randomised trials for HIV prevention. The Lancet (online edition), July 13th, 2007.
7 Shelton, James D. Ten myths and one truth about generalised HIV epidemics. The Lancet 2007; 370: 1809-1811
8 David Wilson. Partner reduction and the prevention of HIV/AIDS: the most effective strategies come from communities. British Medical Journal 2004; 328: 848-49.
9 Shelton, James D. Confessions of a condom lover. The Lancet 2006; 368: 1947-1949.
10 Bessinger R, Akwara P, Halperin D. Sexual Behavior, HIV and Fertility Trends: A Comparative Analysis of Six Countries; phase I of the ABC Study. Chapel Hill, NC: Measure Evaluation, 2003.
Cheluget B, Baltazar G, et al. Evidence for population level declines in adult HIV prevalence in Kenya. Sexually Transmitted Infections 2006 82; Suppl 1: i21-6.
11 Bessinger et al, 2003.
12 Kenya DHS. Available at www.measuredhs.com.
13 DHS. Available at www.measuredhs.com.
14 Uganda MoH. Uganda HIV/AIDS Sero-behavioural Survey 2004-05[/quote]


Furthermore it is a fact which can be looked up by anybody that the countries most aggressively promoting condom use have the highest infection rates of HIV. The opposite is true for countries promoting abstinence.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 January 2010 - 03:18 PM' timestamp='1262985511' post='2032629']

Furthermore it is a fact which can be looked up by anybody that the countries most aggressively promoting condom use have the highest infection rates of HIV. The opposite is true for countries promoting abstinence.
[/quote]
Yeah, who would believe that Uganda would lead in anything. Abstinence education worked better there.

[philbo]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 January 2010 - 10:18 PM' timestamp='1262985511' post='2032629']
Furthermore it is a fact which can be looked up by anybody that the countries most aggressively promoting condom use have the highest infection rates of HIV. The opposite is true for countries promoting abstinence.
[/quote]
Countries where abstinence was & is a cultural trait have lower levels of HIV infection - that's kind of inevitable; where sex has been part of the culture, HIV is prevalent.

It's the latter where condom use has been most "aggressively" promoted, 'cause that's where it's most needed - the stats bear that out. The biggest problem is behavioural and regarding attitude - actually getting the men to use a condom. After all, all other things being equal (like ignoring STDs and pregnancy.. minor life events like that), wouldn't you prefer non-rubber-coated sex? This is what the people on the ground in those most affected areas are reporting - you can give a guy as many condoms as you like, but it doesn't make him wear them. Which is why the message that wearing a condom is a bad thing, well, is a bad thing.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='philbo' date='08 January 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1262987127' post='2032667']

It's the latter where condom use has been most "aggressively" promoted, 'cause that's where it's most needed - the stats bear that out. The biggest problem is behavioural and regarding attitude - actually getting the men to use a condom. After all, all other things being equal (like ignoring STDs and pregnancy.. minor life events like that), wouldn't you prefer non-rubber-coated sex? This is what the people on the ground in those most affected areas are reporting - you can give a guy as many condoms as you like, but it doesn't make him wear them. Which is why the message that wearing a condom is a bad thing, well, is a bad thing.
[/quote]
So you're saying that........... the fact that it hasn't worked is evidence that it needs to keep being done?

[Jaime]

$1.4 billion is spent annually on sex education by the US govt. Roughly half of that is spent on contraceptive education. Yet last checked 1 in 4 teen girls are carrying an STI.



I'm sorry what were you saying about education??

[Varg]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='08 January 2010 - 05:23 PM' timestamp='1262989433' post='2032683']
$1.4 billion is spent annually on sex education by the US govt. Roughly half of that is spent on contraceptive education. Yet last checked 1 in 4 ([u]sexually active[/u]) teen girls are carrying an STI.



I'm sorry what were you saying about education??
[/quote]

[Winchester]

[quote name='philbo' date='08 January 2010 - 03:54 PM' timestamp='1262984066' post='2032615']

Is that the sound of a pot calling the kettle black? The difference is that careful in-depth study reinforces my presuppositions rather than contradicts them.[/quote]
Not really, because I'm not a pragmatist. But it depends on the study and how the data is compiled. Too often I've found that studies are corrupted by ignoring bad data, skewing data, rejecting contradictory evidence, and so on. Our 6 billion people number was one of many agenda driven "truths".

[quote]
Not that I can remember having any ingrained presuppositions when it comes (pun not intended) to condom usage - strangely enough, I don't have a religious leader telling me to use them. So who is most likely to have arrived at their position from a preconceived (again, pun not intended) position?
[/quote]
You'll need to rethink that statement. You're rejecting statements contrary to results, I'm rejecting the use regardless of outcomes.

[Varg]

[mod]disrespectful of other people's religion- MIKolbe[/mod]

[Jaime]

shoot man did you say this already too???

[KnightofChrist]

[quote]There's no way I'm trusting this guy. [/quote]

Though the angle is extreme the boy is clearly kissing the Pope on the check. Meaning the boy's lips are on the Pope's check...

Their not kissing in anyway that should base your distrust of the Pope based on this picture.

But this image was posted in a contemptuous way against the Holy Pontiff.

Edited January 8, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Happy_Catholic]

I'm gonna have to go try and find it, but I have a study in hard copy, from a reputable medical journal that states that every study since 2001 has found that condoms actually INCREASE the incidences of STDs. Why? Well, condoms aren't as effective as they're made out to be. But people are told that condoms make sex safe, so more people will have more sex using more condoms thinking they are protected, but since the condoms aren't that effective the STD rates are going up and up.

I won't judge a married couple who use a condom to protect one of the spouses from the other's HIV infection, but I think the best way to prevent HIV infection is to push faithfulness in marriage and abstienance before hand.

But people haven gotten lazy, especially in the West, HIV is just another chronic illness now.

[philbo]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 January 2010 - 11:01 PM' timestamp='1262988113' post='2032676']


So you're saying that........... the fact that it hasn't worked is evidence that it needs to keep being done?
[/quote]

Couldn't you say exactly the same of trying to get people to abstain?  After all, it doesn't work 100% for priests who have had years of training and taken vows of abstention, why would you expect lecturing from the pulpit to make people decide not to have sex?

Regarding all the "condoms increase STD trasmission" posts, can we take it right back to basics and see if we can agree on one simple thing: is there anyone here who would disagree with the assertion that for a single act of intercourse between two people, one of whom is carrying a STD, the likelihood of transmission is dramatically reduced if a condom is worn?