Eastern Christianity

[Veridicus]

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[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='28 February 2010 - 06:20 PM' timestamp='1267399226' post='2064478']I agree, the bishop's position is biblical (energeia is a term found in the New Testament) and patristic. Salvation does not involve participation in, or a vision of, the divine essence, but involves instead a participation in, and vision of, God's holiness, life, justice, immorality, etc. (i.e., His many energeiai)[/quote]

This is what St John Chrysostom has to say:

[i][color="#0000FF"]"[u]For as concerning the king it is not even possible to say what he is like:[/u] so completely do his beauty, his grace, his splendour, his glory, his grandeur and magnificence elude speech and thought. Shall we then, I ask, deprive ourselves of such great blessings, in order to avoid suffering for a brief period? For if we had to endure countless deaths every day, or even hell itself, for the sake of seeing Christ coming in His glory, and being enrolled in the company of the saints, ought we not to undergo all those things? Hear what the blessed Peter says; “it is good for us to be here.” Matthew 17:4 But if he, when he beheld some dim image of the things to come, immediately cast away all other things out of his soul on account of the pleasure produced in it by that vision; what would any one say when the actual reality of the things is presented, [u]when the palace is thrown open and it is permitted to gaze upon the King [color="#FF0000"]Himself[/color][/u], no longer darkly, or by means of a mirror, 1 Corinthians 13:12 but face to face; [u]no longer by means of faith, but by sight[/u]?"[/color][/i]
[b]Theodore After His Fall, First Letter, section 11[/b]

[quote]I am not assuming anything about their position, they are Latinized, as my Oriental Orthodox friends have told me, and as Bishop Bishoy's essay shows in his quotation from St. Basil the Great.[/quote]

I'm going to take these Oriental Christians at face value when they say there is a distinction between the how Greek inspired theology uses "essence / energies" and there personal use of the terms ([url="http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=5662414&postcount=19"][b]Link to post[/b][/url]):

[color="#0000FF"][i]"The best way to state it is that [u]Orientals do not view the Essence and Energies as an ontological distinction within the Godhead.[/u] It is a merely an epistemological or philosophical convention used by us mere mortals to understand the theological Truth that God is totally "Other." So, of what we can experience of God, we call "Energy," and what we can't by virtue of God being totally "Other" is "Essence." [...] [u]In the Eastern understanding, Energy is viewed from the perspective of what God is. From the Oriental understanding, Energy is viewed merely from the perspective of what we can experience."[/u][/i][/color]

The Oriental use of "essence / energies" is perfectly consistent with Roman Catholicism because it's a virtual distinction, and not a genuine one that exists in the Godhead, as the Greeks claim.

Now as for the quote of St Basil, I found nothing disagreeable with it. The Saint is saying what Roman Catholics have always believed, that we can't know the essence of God through our natural capacity, and that on earth we only have a mediate knowledge of God.

[quote]I am unable to assent to this viewpoint, because it is contrary to the teachings of St. Gregory of Nyssa (and the other two Cappadocian Fathers) and all the other Eastern Fathers, who hold that the divine essence is imparticipable, both in this life and in the eschaton (see St. Gregory of Nyssa's "Life of Moses," his treatise against Eunomios, and his homilies on the Beatitudes and Ecclesiastes).[/quote]

It's contrary to Palamas' interpretation of some of the Greek Fathers, but it is not contrary to what they actually said. What many of them argue against was Eunomios' assertion that God can be/is known immediately [i]even in this life[/i], or that God can be known comprehensively, or that He can be viewed with corporeal eyes.

If we look at an earlier Church Father like St Ireneus, we see explicit mention of the Just in heaven seeing God (I'll quote the whole section as a separate post.)

[mortify]

[color="#0000FF"][i]"These things did the prophets set forth in a prophetical manner; but they did not, as some allege, [proclaim] that He who was seen by the prophets was a different [God], the Father of all being invisible. Yet this is what those [heretics] declare, who are altogether ignorant of the nature of prophecy. For prophecy is a prediction of things future, that is, a setting forth beforehand of those things which shall be afterwards. [b]The prophets, then, indicated beforehand that God should be seen by men; as the Lord also says, “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.” Matthew 5:8 But in respect to His greatness, and His wonderful glory, “no man shall see God and live,” Exodus 33:20 [color="#FF0000"]for the Father is incomprehensible[/color]; but in regard to His love, and kindness, and as to His infinite power, [color="#FF0000"]even this[/color] He grants to those who love Him, that is, [color="#FF0000"]to see God[/color], which thing the prophets did also predict.[/b] “For those things that are impossible with men, are possible with God.” Luke 18:27 [b][u]For man does not see God by his own powers; but when He pleases He is seen by men, by whom He wills, and when He wills, and as He wills.[/u][/b]

[b][u]"For God is powerful in all things, having been seen at that time indeed, prophetically through the Spirit, and seen, too, adoptively through the Son; and [color="#FF0000"]He shall also be seen [size="4"]paternally[/size] in the kingdom of heaven,[/color][/u][/b] the Spirit truly preparing man in the Son of God, and the Son leading him to the Father, while the Father, too, confers [upon him] incorruption for eternal life, which comes to every one from the fact of his seeing God. For as those who see the light are within the light, and partake of its brilliancy; even so, those who see God are in God, and receive of His splendour. But [His] splendour vivifies them; those, therefore, who see God, do receive life. And for this reason, He, [although] beyond comprehension, and boundless and invisible, rendered Himself visible, and comprehensible, and within the capacity of those who believe, that He might vivify those who receive and behold Him through faith. For as His greatness is past finding out, so also His goodness is beyond expression; by which having been seen, He bestows life upon those who see Him. It is not possible to live apart from life, and the means of life is found in fellowship with God; but fellowship with God is to know God, and to enjoy His goodness."

[b]"Men therefore shall see God, that they may live, being made immortal by that sight, and attaining even unto God;[/b]
[/i][/color]
[b]Against the Heresies, Book 4, Ch 20, Sections 5 & 6[/b]

Edited March 2, 2010 by mortify

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='28 February 2010 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1267400845' post='2064514']
The Pope is free, if the profession of faith issued by the Melkite Holy Synod and Patriarch is contrary to "catholic" teaching, to break communion with the Melkite Catholic Church, but alas he has not done so.
[/quote]

You're forgetting the importance Ecumenism plays in all of this.

The goal since Vatican II has been to develop "unity" even with groups outside the Christian faith, such as Muslims and Jews, so why should we be surprised that the Pope has not explicitly severed union with Christians who hold contrary views? Clearly, the Pope's silence on a matter can't be used to justify the theological soundness of a contemporary profession of faith, even though those accepting such a profession will use this silence to their advantage.

[Ziggamafu]

I love these threads. I learn so much from Eastern theology. I love it. I simply disagree with a certain fundamental aspect of Eastern theology in relation to the Church Militant. I do not feel that these fundamental concerns have yet been adequately addressed by the Eastern Christians on this board. It seems clear that the Church Militant is both imperfect and undergoing continual evolution in its awareness of divine revelation; it is a living organism, which grows and changes organically, reaching toward its eternal identity as the Church Triumphant, which of course is perfect and changeless. The Eastern Christians seem to treat the Church Militant as if it were already, [i]in this world[/i], the Church Triumphant, and thus in need of no organic, developmental growth.