Eastern Christianity

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='brightsadness' date='07 January 2010 - 07:03 PM' timestamp='1262909033' post='2032106']
Having attended the second marriages of Orthodox relatives, both divorced and widowed, I am aware that the ceremony has some different prayers. Chief among them is a request for forgiveness for the "sin of a second marriage." It seemed both humble and kind to me. But I understand that it is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.
[/quote]

Nor was it the teaching of Jesus, who said if a man divorces and remarries he commits a sin.... etc.

ed

[Apotheoun]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etxMPk4lphM[/media]

[brightsadness]

[url="http://www.easternchristianmedia.com/imv1.html"]http://www.easternchristianmedia.com/imv1.html[/url] This series on the Invisible made Visible (by my pastor[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) is on Eastern Catholicism. I think it's good but am certainly not objective.

[Skinzo]

I think this thread might make more sense if we had more Orthodox members. Failing that, it might be a better idea to post it at an Orthodox forum. Or invite them to join us!


S.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Skinzo

[Saecula]

I agree, awesome thread!

[Guest WhiskeyWalsh]

[quote name='Skinzo' date='23 January 2010 - 09:22 AM' timestamp='1264256570' post='2042800']
I think this thread might make more sense if we had more Orthodox members. Failing that, it might be a better idea to post it at an Orthodox forum. Or invite them to join us!


S.
[/quote]

Actually, if you're looking for a good Orthodox forum, you might want to try Monachos.net. Its a place for some pretty rigorous and involved discussions.

[jeffpugh]

[mortify]

When people speak of "Eastern Christianity" they're usually referring to the Byzantine Church and those under her influence (i.e. Russians, Serbs, etc) and so we talk of Christendom being broken in 1054 A.D. The reality is Christendom was broken much earlier, in the year 451 AD when the Oriental Churches rejected the Council of Chalcedon. I think this is important to remember because not all Churches of the East share the same theological views. So for example Copts believe as the Latins do, that the Just in heaven see the Essence of God where as the Greeks maintain it's impossibility. Just some food for thought.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' date='28 February 2010 - 09:25 AM' timestamp='1267374347' post='2064245']
When people speak of "Eastern Christianity" they're usually referring to the Byzantine Church and those under her influence (i.e. Russians, Serbs, etc) and so we talk of Christendom being broken in 1054 A.D. The reality is Christendom was broken much earlier, in the year 451 AD when the Oriental Churches rejected the Council of Chalcedon. I think this is important to remember because not all Churches of the East share the same theological views. So for example Copts believe as the Latins do, that the Just in heaven see the Essence of God where as the Greeks maintain it's impossibility. Just some food for thought.
[/quote]
None of the Oriental Orthodox that I know believe that man can see the essence of God. Moreover, if they were to believe such a thing they would be contradicting the teaching of St. Cyril of Alexandria, who in his writings, made the distinction between essence and energy in God. Even Severus of Antioch, who in many ways is the "Father" of Oriental Orthodoxy, distinguishes between essence and energy, while also accepting the authority of the writings of Pseudo-Dionysios, who himself distinguish between "ousia" and "dynamis / energeia", but where Severus is confused is in his Christology, for in that branch of theology he holds that Christ incarnate has one theandric nature and energy, and by this implying a "blending" of His natures rather than a union of natures and energies in His one hypostasis, which is contrary to the teaching of both Chalcedon and the much later Council of Constantinople III.

Links on [i]theosis[/i] from the Coptic Oriental Orthodox website of the Diocese of the Southern United States:

[url="http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=1246&catid=383"]Thesosis 01[/url]

[url="http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=1247&catid=383"]Theosis 02[/url]

[url="http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=649&catid=383"]Theosis 03[/url]

The only Copts or other Orientals that I have run into that accept various Latin theological theories are Coptic and other Oriental Catholics, but not Coptic Oriental Orthodox or other members of Oriental Orthodox Churches.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

It is important for Roman Catholics to remember that the Oriental Orthodox believe that Pope Leo's Tome, i.e., from the Council of Chalcedon is heretical, while the same treatise is accepted as orthodox by the Churches of the Byzantine tradition (i.e., both Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox).

Edited February 28, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

Letter from Severus of Antioch to Diocorus II of Alexandria:

"Accordingly I have thought right to inform your sanctity, in order that by common consultation we may decide upon what ought to be done. They say that we ought to receive them upon their giving us satisfaction up to this point, I mean up to the point of confessing the orthodox faith [b]and anathematizing the things done at Chalcedon and the [i]impious Tome of Leo[/i], who was head of the church of the Romans (would that he had never been so!)[/b], and those who speak of two natures after the union and the energies and properties of these."

From the Letters of Severus of Antioch, Section IV, Number 2

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='28 February 2010 - 11:58 AM' timestamp='1267376300' post='2064254']
None of the Oriental Orthodox that I know believe that man can see the essence of God.[/quote]

Not for an ordinary man on earth, but for the Just in heaven, why is it impossible?


As for the links you posted, I noticed you posted them on the ByzCatholic forum ([url="http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/342621/The%20Palamite%20Distinction:%20%20Is"][b]Link to thread[/b][/url]) as well, and two Coptic Christians responded to you with the following:

From a poster by the name of [b]Michael_Thoma[/b]:
[quote][i]"That distinction, as exclusive and dogmatic, is not found within Oriental Orthodoxy. As the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches now, for the most part, consider each other as "two families within the Orthodox Church", I consider the Palamite teaching as a uniquely Byzantine expression but non-dogmatic."[/i][/quote]


And from a poster named [b]mardukm[/b]:
[quote][i]Brother Michael Thoma is correct. The Essence/Energy distinction is not dogma in the Oriental Churches, and none of your links prove otherwise.

In fact, your first link demonstrates what I stated in another thread (http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=5662414&postcount=19) - that to Orientals, the Essence/Energy distinction is merely an epistemological distinction, not an ontological one. To Orientals, it is only about what we can experience, and we don't speak of Essence/Energy in terms of what God is. I don't understand in the least how one can dogmatically assert the ontological make-up of the Godhead. The only dogmatic distinction that Orientals recognize within the Godhead is the distinction of Persons.[/i][/quote]

And again...
[quote][i]
As stated, the only distinction that Orientals recognize within the Godhead is the distinction of Persons, which does not involve diaresis.[/i][/quote]

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='28 February 2010 - 12:10 PM' timestamp='1267377044' post='2064261']
It is important for Roman Catholics to remember that the Oriental Orthodox believe that Pope Leo's Tome, i.e., from the Council of Chalcedon is heretical, while the same treatise is accepted as orthodox by the Churches of the Byzantine tradition (i.e., both Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox).
[/quote]

It's just interesting when Latins and Easterners find themselves agreeing in opposition to theologies particular to Greek thought. Eastern thought is much too broad to equate it with Byzantine theology.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' date='28 February 2010 - 12:17 PM' timestamp='1267384643' post='2064340']
Not for an ordinary man on earth, but for the Just in heaven, why is it impossible? [/quote]
Because, according to the Eastern Fathers, to see or participate in the divine essence is to cross the diastemic gap between the uncreated and the created, which no created being can do (see St. Gregory of Nyssa's [i]Seventh Homily on Ecclesiastes[/i], sections j412-j415; see also Dr. Scot Douglas' book [u]Theology of the Gap[/u], which explains the reason for the Cappadocians use of the essence / energy distinction in order to refute Eunomian essentialism).


[quote name='mortify' date='28 February 2010 - 12:17 PM' timestamp='1267384643' post='2064340']
As for the links you posted, I noticed you posted them on the ByzCatholic forum ([url="http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/342621/The%20Palamite%20Distinction:%20%20Is"][b]Link to thread[/b][/url]) as well, and two Coptic Christians responded to you with the following:

. . .
[/quote]
Both of those posters are Catholics, not Coptic Orthodox. None of my Oriental Orthodox friends, and I have several, accept the Latinized views of the Coptic Catholics.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' date='28 February 2010 - 12:21 PM' timestamp='1267384884' post='2064345']
It's just interesting when Latins and Easterners find themselves agreeing in opposition to theologies particular to Greek thought. Eastern thought is much too broad to equate it with Byzantine theology.
[/quote]
The Coptic Catholic Church is a comparatively recent creation (circa 1741) and they make up less than one percent of all Coptic Christians. They are hardly representative of Coptic Oriental Orthodoxy, which - unlike the Coptic Catholics - accept the teaching of Severus of Antioch, who - as the letter I quoted indicates - held that Pope St. Leo the Great was a heretic.

The Latinizing of the Coptic Catholics in areas unrelated to the theology of Severus is lamentable.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Apotheoun