God And Guns

[Winchester]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='06 January 2010 - 06:17 PM' timestamp='1262819844' post='2031202']
Same here but the question compelled me to vote no for inexplicable reasons. I renounce that question in the name of Rufio.
[/quote]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/DonkeyPuncherJ/Rufio.jpg[/img]

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Socrates' date='06 January 2010 - 07:18 PM' timestamp='1262823485' post='2031246']
It was "cling to their guns and religion." The song references this at the beginning:
“I heard the president say campaigning that day / I couldn’t believe what I heard him say / he said people in small towns get bitter and cling / to guns or religion like that’s a dumb, backwards thing.”

(Obama actually made the comment in San Diego or someplace, talking about people in small-town Pennsylvania.)
[/quote]


ooooh got it now.

[KnightofChrist]

Jesus will dåmn souls to hell forever but He would never ever shoot some thug trying to hurt his mom dukes? Yeah right...

[Kitty]

[img]http://brandrea.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/jesus_gun31.jpg[/img]

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='nunsense' date='06 January 2010 - 06:22 AM' timestamp='1262776940' post='2030775']
No, He would have said to the aggressor,

[i]"Strike her down, and she shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!"[/i]


[/quote]

[img]http://lh3.ggpht.com/haymansbeard/RrFkGaI8arI/AAAAAAAAAI4/QdCbNRmw-ag/s512/Obi+Wan+Kenobi+01+Large.JPG[/img]

[kamiller42]

A part of me says no because if the aggressor was going to take his life, he would have accept it as God's will. He knew he would have to die in order to fulfill the prophecy. If God chose that to be the way, he would accept it. We see that in Luke when the aggressors are greeted with Peter's sword. Jesus says "Enough!"

The other part of me says he would not need a gun because his gaze would disarm the aggressor. The aggressor would then hang his head in shame. I saw Jesus do this in a movie.

[Winchester]

Red Dawn?

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Winchester' date='06 January 2010 - 10:34 PM' timestamp='1262835274' post='2031364']
Red Dawn?
[/quote]
In a way, you are correct. No soviets or wolverines though. Sorry.

[Winchester]

"I never saweth the twins again..." Lk 12:31

[Gregorius]

[quote name='nunsense' date='06 January 2010 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1262819420' post='2031201']
You are very wise, very wise indeed.
[/quote]
[img]http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/it-pennywise-basement-tm.jpg[/img]

[Maximilianus]

[quote name='Gregorius' date='07 January 2010 - 01:12 AM' timestamp='1262841126' post='2031560']
[img]http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/it-pennywise-basement-tm.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
(gasps and runs from the computer in sheer terror)

[Happy_Catholic]

[quote name='Maximilianus' date='07 January 2010 - 12:25 AM' timestamp='1262841951' post='2031575']
(gasps and runs from the computer in sheer terror)
[/quote]

NO! Don't do that! He feeds off fear!!

Edited January 7, 2010 by Happy_Catholic

[Varg]

If he really was some all-powerful geezer then sure he could do something more exciting than shoot someone...Like make a horde of angry honey badgers attack the aggressor or turn his gun into a rabbit.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='06 January 2010 - 09:13 PM' timestamp='1262830433' post='2031304']
Jesus will dåmn souls to hell forever but He would never ever shoot some thug trying to hurt his mom dukes? Yeah right...
[/quote]

Wasn't the job of the Word Incarnate.

[MithLuin]

Scenarios often posit false dilemmas. You are only given two choices, neither of which seem very good, whereas, with a little creativity, you could probably come up with a better solution. It's like the one where you have the key that's going to stop a nuclear weapon from going off in a densely populated area, but you have to get it to the site under a certain deadline, so you are driving as quickly as you can....

....and a kid runs out into the street in front of your car.

The assumption is that if you slam on the breaks (or hit a parked car or something) to avoid killing the kid, you will then have wasted precious moments and won't be able to disarm the bomb in time. This means that...

You have to choose between taking the life of one innocent person or risking the lives of the entire city.

But in reality...why on earth do you have the key to disarming the bomb, and why aren't you at your post? Life has time sensitive events, but it isn't a spy movie where the bomb is always disarmed with seconds remaining. You probably would be able to slow down or swerve around the kid and keep going and everything would work out. But no, the scenario says you have to choose between their lives. It's useful to ask questions this way, but morality is not all about moral dilemmas and case scenarios..and analyzing such without establishing first principles is rather...distorted.



That's what this one is doing - asking us to choose between lives. This one is asking whether Jesus would have chosen to take the life of an intruder, or allowed the intruder to kill his mother. When in reality...why are these the only choices? And since when does the Son of Man have a home to defend?

He made some pretty radical statements about allowing others to do their own thing.

[quote]"You have heard that it was said, `AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

"You have heard that it was said, `YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." [/quote]

Granted, none of these examples deal with loss of life. But he's the [i]Son of God[/i]. If any injury were done to his mother Mary, do you honestly think he couldn't heal her of it? He [i]raised people from the dead[/i] on three occasions. I insist that this is a false dilemma, and posit that Jesus could have solved it without loss of life occurring.

But if we want to know what he thought of guns, it would make sense to look at what he had to say about swords, a perfectly useful deadly weapon from his own time. The main difference is that you have to be a bit closer and have some personal strength to use one...but your opponent is just as dead afterward. They only fell out of fashion because guns were more effective.

[quote]And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew out his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear. Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. [b]Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?[/b] How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?"

At that time Jesus said to the crowds, "Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me as you would against a robber? Every day I used to sit in the temple teaching and you did not seize Me. But all this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures of the prophets." Then all the disciples left Him and fled. [/quote]

So, basically, legions of angels would have protected Mary if Jesus asked them to. Good enough for me. What on earth would he need a gun for?



Now, if you are interested to know if [i]you[/i] would be justified in shooting an intruder dead to protect your family, I suggest you look into Castle Laws in the US - they vary state by state. Depending on circumstances, charges can be brought against you in some places. That's the legal side. The moral side? In self defense (or in defense of family, etc), fighting back is certainly justified, and if you happen to kill the person in self defense, that's unfortunate...but...that's life. It's supposed to be a last resort, though - if there's a way to avoid the confrontation in the first place, that's always preferable...since you don't know if the other person intends to use deadly force on [i]you[/i]...and if they succeed, your family is now vulnerable.

So, another solution is that Jesus and Mary slip out the back door, and the dilemma is averted. The thief makes off with Mary's baking for the day.


And as for Lynyrd Skynyrd:
[quote]Saturday night special
Got a barrel that's blue and cold
Ain't no good for nothin'
But put a man six feet in a hole.

Well hand guns are made for killin'
They ain't no good for nothin' else
And if you like to drink your whiskey
You might even shoot yourself.
So why don't we dump 'em, people
To the bottom of the sea
Before some ole fool come around here
Wanna shoot either you or me.[/quote]

Edited January 10, 2010 by MithLuin