Ghosts, Not The Holy Spirit

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='05 January 2010 - 12:02 AM' timestamp='1262671373' post='2030058']
Nihil Obstat, he looks to much like the Monopoly Man to be a diety.

ed
[/quote]
[img]http://www.weldingandgasestoday.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/hyneman.jpg[/img] [img]http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/2008/02/20/monopoly.jpg[/img]



Not seein' it.

[Ed Normile]

Come on, change the hat, dress him up, shave the goatee MONOPOLY MAN !

ed

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='05 January 2010 - 12:30 AM' timestamp='1262673043' post='2030073']
Come on, change the hat, dress him up, shave the goatee MONOPOLY MAN !

ed
[/quote]
Does that work with any bald man with a moustache?

[Ed Normile]

Its really the eyes that do it for me, but I guess if he were a diminutive bald man with a round head and strange eyes yes.

ed

[Varg]

[quote name='Happy_Catholic' date='05 January 2010 - 12:34 AM' timestamp='1262669695' post='2030039']
Odin's a git. He can't control his kids. And what kind of god only has one eye? All that Jesus' smashing power, you'd think he could re-grow the thing.
[/quote]
1. At least he doesn't kill his children.
2. Odin is so powerful he could see with no eyes at all.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Varg

[Varg]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='05 January 2010 - 12:58 AM' timestamp='1262671089' post='2030053']
If I wanted a fantasy god
[/quote]
If?

[Lilllabettt]

There are two kinds of haunting type things ... ghosts and demons. Generally we shouldn't mess with anything paranormal, because you can't be certain which kind you're dealing with.

when I was a Sister, the idea was that "ghost" type things are poor Souls in Purgatory who want us to pray for them or do something... (eg., there was a priest who accepted lots of Mass stipends, and then died before making any real attempt to offer the Masses ... so he was "haunting" the rectory until the priest who replaced him found his books and made it right ...)

Many times I'd hear a knock at my cell door, open it and nobody be there. That was supposedly a soul in purgatory waking me up to pray for them.

[cmotherofpirl]

The infatuation with the paranormal stems from the missing supernatural element in the lives of those seekers.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Rosedelima' date='05 January 2010 - 01:30 AM' timestamp='1262669438' post='2030036']
I've also noticed the prevalence of all these ghost-related shows. The one on Animal Planet called "The Haunted" is interesting from the perspective that I do believe animals can sense things of a paranormal nature usually before people. I have noticed this in my own cat. Thankfully, it's generally only been him staring at something/upward toward a wall or something where there isn't anything (except maybe being near a friend artist's rendition of the crucifixion). I take that as a good sign. But, I think the obsession has gone overboard, certainly and is indeed dangerous. I have seen episodes (mostly one day of watching one after another in some crazy marathon) where the state's local paranormal investigators are called in and then some lame "ritual cleansing" is performed by putting salt around the house to the one where a Catholic priest is involved. They never called him a priest trained specifically in exorcism, i.e., an exorcist, which is what I thought priests had to be in order to perform this sort of thing. I know anyone well, particularly Catholics) can pray and demand in Christ's name that some evil force be gone, but I think just anyone doing it as being like when that happens in the New Testament and the demons say (to whom, I forget), "Jesus we know, Paul we've heard of . . . but who are you?" The priest is also accompanied by a psychic and othernon-believers (who at the beginning either miraculously know the rosary or are taught to recite it in order to revive an oppressed dog). The goal on this adventure is to corner the demon, but the whole group ordeal comes across asif the priest is more a part of a side show than the only one with authority toactually exorcise the demon.

To wit, I think the prevalence successfully trivializes evil, attempts to harness it, make it manageable, innocuous, and worse, makes the occult and affiliation with it into entertainment. One episode that illustrated the effect on teens resulted in a family friend's death who stayed at the "haunted" home, a home oppressed by a demon that had followed the teens home from their dabbling in the occult and visiting haunted houses. It was just a tragedy that did have the final result of turning them from the occult, but a result (the friend's death) was never really considered to be at all something they may have invited with their dabbling with demons. Hardly worth being promoted as entertainment.
[/quote]

The priest whom you mention is Fr. Bob Bailey, on the show "Paranormal State." I have spoken to him extensively, and, according to him, his bishop has given him permission to do what he does, though not an exorcist, he calls it "deliverance." Ryan, the founder of PRS is a Catholic, which is how he became friends with Fr. Bob. I can tell you, after much discussion, that Fr.'s views are more "open" in terms of paranormal investigation than anything else. He believes we have a lot to learn from mediums and the like, though he is adamant about staying far away from the Ouija board. He actually has his own group of paranormal investigators (whom, again, he has assured me was done with his bishop's approval) called the "St. Michael Society" or something to that effect...I can't remember it exactly.

His view, like many priests I know, is that there are demons, there are angels and there are ghosts. However, his view is more in line with a priest by the name of Fr. John Hampsch, who believes that those who died exerted their "free will" and have refused going to Judgment (it is a theory, it is not approved by anyone, and it is speculative, at best). The more common idea is that a soul in Purgatory has been given, by the grace of God, the ability to return in order to solicit prayers. There are thousands of stories, from saints to sinners, that recount this. In fact, it is said, that St. Teresa of Avila saw a sister who had died, sullen, sad, and consumed in a "cleansing fire." St. Teresa saw in this that she needed prayers, so every day she prayed for this sister, who eventually, looked radiant and whom one day St. Teresa saw rise to Heaven. There is a story about a priest who went to the center of the Bermuda Triangle (remember that place) and, on a boat, he said a Mass for all the "lost souls" there. It is said, that after that less and less mysterious things started to happen.

The thing you have to remember is that, when we come to down to it, we don't know what happens after we die, we know very little, in fact. We know about Heaven, Hell and Purgatory, but there are elements about death and those who have died and their association with us, that are just not that clear. We call it speculative theology, because, again, there is a lot of mystery surrounding our "lives" after death. I am by no means discrediting what the Church teaches, in fact, I believe it and teach it all the time, but certain elements are still "up for discussion." Remember the controversy John Paul II caused by calling Heaven a state and not a place, despite the difficulty of explaining the bodies of Jesus and Mary (something needed to take up space) or the ongoing debate as to whether Purgatory has real fire, or even what Purgatory consists of.

It is our lack of understanding that breeds certain theories or speculations, based on the experiences of the saints not because we are trying to fall into error, but because we are trying to better understand the fullness of the spiritual life. Heresy always results when we are seeking understanding, but, in the end, truth reigns supreme, look at Arianism or any attempt at trying to understand the Trinity, even St. Justin fell into error for a little while, until things became more clear. As always, Hamlet says it well: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

BTW, if this an interest to some of you, feel free to join our little facebook site called "The Catholic Church and the Paranormal." You do have to keep an open mind and realize that we are speculating not stating fact, but if you are up for a good conversation, feel free to check it out and send me a request.

God bless

Fr. Brian

[Sojourner]

Thanks for your thoughts on this, Fr. Brian. I know this is an area in which you have some interest.

I have nothing against attempting to understand the fullness of spiritual truth, as it pertains to the afterlife. But I struggle with accepting exploring paranormal experiences as a form of entertainment (as these sorts of shows promote) or with looking to mediums and the like as a source of truth on this (as you say Fr. Bob advocates). As you say, there are legitimate avenues of inquiry available to faithful Catholics in this area, but I am not convinced that those include pop culture exploration into paranormal activity, or consulting with people who have embraced the occult. As CCC 2116 states, "All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to 'unveil' the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone." I think it's important to remember that as we seek to understand the fullness of spiritual truth.

I suppose that the question I keep coming back to is, what do we need to know in order to achieve salvation? I don't think it's wrong to be curious about what will happen after death. God gives us curiosity as a tool to lead us to salvation as we ponder its mysteries. At the same time, he has given us enough through revelation to be able to achieve salvation, through his grace. Not all of our questions have been answered yet, and not all mysteries made clear. For me, that is part of the joy of faith, that our knowledge is ever-increasing, and that God continually draws us deeper into the mystery of Himself.

I love the story you shared about St. Teresa praying for the sister she saw, and for whom she prayed until she saw the sister rise to Heaven. That strikes me as being the proper response ... prayer for salvation, not an unhealthy interest in the travails of the soul in question and an attempt to trivialize those travails by viewing them as being entertaining.

[Ed Normile]

Terr Firma, Amen! I said it here before Saints are given, or gifted supernatural experiences, its clear in church teachings we should not.

What do we need to in order to acheive salvation, I heard somewhere, "A childlike faith"

ed