Sternhauser Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='01 January 2010 - 11:54 PM' timestamp='1262408076' post='2028420'] I asked what the Church taught because I've demonstrated what the Church teaches. [/quote] Where did you demonstrate what the Church teaches on that subject? ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 [quote name='Hassan' date='01 January 2010 - 11:50 PM' timestamp='1262407811' post='2028417'] That doesn't really help you. The reverse of your question is Stern asking what grounds you have for claiming that Aquinas is saying something contrary to Church teaching, assuming that is his actual opinion. Sternhauser: how, when and what part of a particular society is granted the right to the legitimate use of violence? [/quote] Oh hass again you take a Cliff Notes approach to life. Any scholar could show several places within the Summa where St Thomas Aquinas is making an argument that doesn't correspond to Church teaching. The point is while he is a Doctor of the Church, while most of what he teaches is spot on brilliant, the Summa is not an infallible document of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='02 January 2010 - 12:00 AM' timestamp='1262408459' post='2028423'] Where did you demonstrate what the Church teaches on that subject? ~Sternhauser [/quote] Every statement I've made has been backed up by Church documents. You have not backed up one single opinion with anything taught by the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 (edited) Jaim.e, the point I am making is that if the "State" can morally kill an individual, then an individual can. Hypothetical: you're on a lonely homestead in Omaha. There is no society to speak of, let alone any "authorities." You're being attacked by two desperadoes. You kill one while he is attacking you, while defending yourself. The other turns around on his horse, and rides off, yelling, "I'm coming back to kill you in your sleep!" Are you justified in killing him? If so, why? If not, why not? If no, how can a State make a claim to kill that individual? If individuals bestow powers on it, how can they do so without themselves having that power? ~Sternhauser Edited January 2, 2010 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' date='02 January 2010 - 12:02 AM' timestamp='1262408578' post='2028425'] Every statement I've made has been backed up by Church documents. You have not backed up one single opinion with anything taught by the Church. [/quote] Jaim.e wrote:[quote] "No where does the Church say it is appropriate for an individual to execute another person."[/quote] That's not backed up by Church documents, because it's a negative. Just like the existence of the Church declaration on the existence of Santa. The main point is that while there is nothing saying it is appropriate, neither is there any condemnation of the intrinsic nature of the act of an individual executing another person in the absence of some vague approval by an "authority." ~Sternhauser Edited January 2, 2010 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Peace, Jaim.e. I have to be up early tomorrow. We can continue this another time. ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='02 January 2010 - 12:06 AM' timestamp='1262408819' post='2028428'] Jaim.e, the point I am making is that if the "State" can morally kill an individual, then an individual can. Hypothetical: you're on a lonely homestead in Omaha. There is no society to speak of, let alone any "authorities." You're being attacked by two desperadoes. You kill one while he is attacking you, while defending yourself. The other turns around on his horse, and rides off, yelling, "I'm coming back to kill you in your sleep!" Are you justified in killing him? If so, why? If not, why not? If no, how can a State make a claim to kill that individual? If individuals bestow powers on it, how can they do so without themselves having that power? ~Sternhauser [/quote] and my point has been that the Church does not support this. The Church only supports self defense. What you are talking about with an abortionist is not self defense. It is an execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='02 January 2010 - 12:13 AM' timestamp='1262409234' post='2028431'] Peace, Jaim.e. I have to be up early tomorrow. We can continue this another time. ~Sternhauser [/quote] sleep well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='02 January 2010 - 12:14 AM' timestamp='1262409295' post='2028432'] and my point has been that the Church does not support this. The Church only supports self defense. What you are talking about with an abortionist is not self defense. It is an execution. [/quote] An action which, after having reviewed it on theological grounds, Cardinal Preysing did not prohibit Von Stauffenberg from undertaking. What is the difference between a society which would not kill Hitler, Rudolf Hess or Reinhard Heydrich, and a society that will not prosecute and imprison abortionists? ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 My original reason for commenting on this thread is this: I've read the article and I have some fundamental problems with it. [quote] Was it just a ticketing accident that led to a bombing attempt onChristmas? Was it all about blackout dates and frequent-flyer miles? It wasn't. You know it. And I know it. But our government [i]refuses[/i]to know it. Despite vast databases crammed with evidence, our leaders-- of both parties -- still refuse to connect Islamist terrorism withIslam. [/quote] This is a bunch of crapola. I know muslims who are peaceful and intelligent people. I know some muslims that are dumbasses. But you make broad sweeping generalizations about a particular religion and the end result is the abolition of all religions. Mark my words, this country isn't moving into a direction of "wising up about islam". We are moving in the direction of banning all religions. And the type of rhetoric that is being perpetrated in this article (The New York Post is now an actual source of news??) benefits exactly two groups, atheists and those who dig satan. it is the smallest of steps to go from "Islam is violent" to "all religion is violent" . And folks, as much as some think that islam is the root of all evil and violence, radical islamists have NOTHING on atheists. Atheists have killed more people than all deaths in the name of God (or a god). Look at the works of Lenin Stalin and Pol Pot just to name a few. You add to this vitriolic bias, and we will be next in line. I promise you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='02 January 2010 - 12:01 AM' timestamp='1262408462' post='2028424'] Oh hass again you take a Cliff Notes approach to life. Any scholar could show several places within the Summa where St Thomas Aquinas is making an argument that doesn't correspond to Church teaching. The point is while he is a Doctor of the Church, while most of what he teaches is spot on brilliant, the Summa is not an infallible document of the Church. [/quote] We had an altercation how many months ago? I have since then publicly apologized to you, removed myself from the board for a few days, and made a concerted effort to be less combative towards you. You have continued to do that 'Hass ' thing to me ever since. I'm not saying I have been anywhere near perfect in my behavior to you since then, but I have tried. I was not rude to you here, I am simply trying to understand your position here. You're a middle aged man, grow up. Have those scholars ever said that the Tomist position in question here is contrary (I'm not sure exactly what you mean in saying an argument 'doesn't correspond to' a doctrine) to Church teachings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDztOpxIebM&feature=related"]An excellent explanation[/url] of what Thomist scholars think on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='02 January 2010 - 01:14 AM' timestamp='1262412889' post='2028459'] [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDztOpxIebM&feature=related"]An excellent explanation[/url] of what Thomist scholars think on the matter. [/quote] She is very attractive, but said little about the Thomist position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='02 January 2010 - 01:14 AM' timestamp='1262412889' post='2028459'] [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDztOpxIebM&feature=related"]An excellent explanation[/url] of what Thomist scholars think on the matter. [/quote] Why do u keep posting that vid? Is this like the new version or rick rolling? Maybe ur just in love with that lady? haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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