Sternhauser Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Happy_Catholic' date='01 January 2010 - 02:40 AM' timestamp='1262331607' post='2028036'] Depends on the variables you imply: Are these men sitting in a cafe having tea?[/quote] They're about to start their day of killing mostly innocent non-Jews and a large minority of Jews. [quote] In which case, are they still in Nazi occupied Europe where theiractions are legal or justified by their superiors? Or is this post war?[/quote] Murder can never be legal. Legal implies law. A law must be an ordinance of right reason. Murder is contrary to reason. [quote]Regardless, under such circumstances all efforts should be made to arrest them or capture them with intent of having them tried later. Concurrently, the death penalty is not moral.[/quote] Not at all feasible. And while you talk about arresting them, their life's work is still slaughtering innocents. [quote]Or are they lining up hundreds of Jewish children to shoot? [/quote] They're lined up. In a queue. They're called "appointments," however. None of this "execution" or "slaughter" language. It's so distasteful to our modern ears. [quote]In this situation, who is doing the shooting? Do one of the children have access to a fire arm? Or perhaps a resistance cell happens upon it? Again, all efforts should be made to capture them alive. If they are shot in a cross fire, it can be argued, morally so, that their deaths were a result of a conflict of war, where both parties, or at least them, are aware of the risks involved. [/quote] Your questions are immaterial. My question: is it moral to kill someone in order to stop him from killing innocents? The Church says yes. [quote] However, while shooting them may be justified, it is not moral.[/quote] If it's justified, it's moral. [quote]God made it explicitly clear we are not to usurp His position by ending life. [/quote] When did he say that? The Church does not say and never has said that killing a human being is an intrinsically immoral act. The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is a mistranslation of the Hebrew word [i]ratsah[/i], which is a [i]criminal[/i] act of killing. It is "Thou shalt not murder." In other words, "Thou shalt not kill the innocent." St. Thomas himself approved of tyrannicide. ~Sternhauser Edited January 1, 2010 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Stern, what on earth are you going on about? Are you going to read the article that this thread is based on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' date='01 January 2010 - 11:40 AM' timestamp='1262364008' post='2028111'] Stern, what on earth are you going on about? Are you going to read the article that this thread is based on? [/quote] What am I talking about? Is that really a sincere question? Because it is evident that I am responding to someone who seemed to put the act of killing of an infanticidal maniac into the same field as the act of a Mahometan killing "infidels" for not being Mahometans. ~Sternhauser Edited January 1, 2010 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='01 January 2010 - 01:10 PM' timestamp='1262369452' post='2028124'] Because it is evident that I am responding to someone who seemed to put the act of killing of an infanticidal maniac into the same field as the act of a Mahometan killing "infidels" for not being Mahometans. [/quote] I have absolutely no idea how you reached THAT conclusion. Happy_Catholic was explaining that as a Pro-Life Catholic, she would never advocate the violent destruction of an abortion clinic - and would be quick to chastise the "Pro-Life" individuals who partook in that destruction. She noted, however, that even the most charitable and peaceful Muslims do not come out to condemn the destructive acts performed by Islamic terrorists. I should add that she is not the only one in this thread who has said something to that effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='01 January 2010 - 05:43 PM' timestamp='1262382236' post='2028182'] She noted, however, that even the most charitable and peaceful Muslims do not come out to condemn the destructive acts performed by Islamic terrorists. I should add that she is not the only one in this thread who has said something to that effect. [/quote] [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/16/islam-synagogue-arson-gaza-antisemitism"]We unreservedly condemn attacks on the Jewish community[/url] [url="http://www.freep.com/article/20091229/NEWS05/91229007/Metro-Detroit-Muslims-condemn-botched-attack"]Metro Detroit Muslims condemn botched attack[/url] [url="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/28/national/main712548.shtml"]Muslim Scholars Condemn Terror[/url] Extensive database of Islamic condemnations of terrorism: [url="http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php"]muhajabah.com[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 [quote name='Lilllabettt' date='01 January 2010 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1262383433' post='2028194'] [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/16/islam-synagogue-arson-gaza-antisemitism"]We unreservedly condemn attacks on the Jewish community[/url] [url="http://www.freep.com/article/20091229/NEWS05/91229007/Metro-Detroit-Muslims-condemn-botched-attack"]Metro Detroit Muslims condemn botched attack[/url] [url="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/28/national/main712548.shtml"]Muslim Scholars Condemn Terror[/url] Extensive database of Islamic condemnations of terrorism: [url="http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php"]muhajabah.com[/url] [/quote] Thank you for the articles, I have been browsing through them. I have to say that from the articles I have read through, they strike me as very passive aggressive. For example, [b]Iran's Ayatollah Imami Kashani spoke of a catastrophic act of terrorism which could only be condemned by all Muslims, adding the whole world should mobilise against terrorism. [/b] Okay awesome. But then, [b] But if its roots were really to be tackled, terrorism and its practitioners would have to be defined, he said, pointing to Israel and calling it a "terrorist state which was killing children". America's support and its arrogant policies around the world might help to explain the brutalism of the hijackers, he added.[/b] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1544955.stm Is this really necessary? Is he making excuses for the attack so soon after he condemned it? Why not just focus on condemning the terrorism? Earlier in this thread I mentioned an American Imam's blog. In one entry he offered condolences for the families of the Ft. Hood victims, but then turned around demanding sympathy for Muslims in the Middle East. It just seems to me that these are not honest condolences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Here is another snippet from a separate article, [b]Leading Islamic scholar Sheikh Taha Jaber Alwani, president of the School of Islamic and Social Sciences in Leesburg, Virginia, told AP news, "Muslims [u]in this country[/u] would think this is unacceptable. I can't accept anything against any American citizen. I'm Muslim. I'm also American. I love America."[/b] http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2001-09/13/article1.shtml Instead of assuring us that Islam does not condone terrorism or any act of violence, this scholar instead assures us that all [u]American Muslims[/u] would think it "unacceptable." What, Islam would not? Just individuals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 I got into an argument with a Vietnamese guy about the war there. I told him a story I know about a thirsty 19 year old GI who was given a Coke by a smiling village kid. The Coke was laced with glass, he drank it, you can imagine what happened. This Vietnamese guy's response was "Well, that was certainly wrong! But so was My Lai!" The Israelis do the same when they turn up with blood on their hands. And they are not so unjustified in doing so. But the point is this is what biologists call typical human behavior. It is a corollary to the humiliation of having to apologize for your community. A defense mechanism. No one swallows humble pie easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 [quote name='Lilllabettt' date='01 January 2010 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1262386641' post='2028213'] It is a corollary to the humiliation of having to apologize for your community. [/quote] I am talking about assuring the public that Islam does not condone violence. For example, if a Catholic went out and murdered in the name of the Church, I would be quick to assure people that the Catholic Church does not encourage such atrocities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 [quote name='Lilllabettt' date='01 January 2010 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1262386641' post='2028213'] I got into an argument with a Vietnamese guy about the war there. I told him a story I know about a thirsty 19 year old GI who was given a Coke by a smiling village kid. The Coke was laced with glass, he drank it, you can imagine what happened. This Vietnamese guy's response was "Well, that was certainly wrong! But so was My Lai!" [/quote] I hear the same sort of thing coming from Americans about Nanking and the deliberate bombings of civilians at Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Tokyo. (The same thing the American politicians were all upset about when the Japanese did the same thing to Chinese cities.) ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' date='01 January 2010 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1262382236' post='2028182'] I have absolutely no idea how you reached THAT conclusion. Happy_Catholic was explaining that as a Pro-Life Catholic, she would never advocate the violent destruction of an abortion clinic - and would be quick to chastise the "Pro-Life" individuals who partook in that destruction. She noted, however, that even the most charitable and peaceful Muslims do not come out to condemn the destructive acts performed by Islamic terrorists. I should add that she is not the only one in this thread who has said something to that effect. [/quote] And I asked her why killing serial murderers (abortionists) in order to stop them from committing more murders is an act that should be condemned. ~Sternhauser Edited January 1, 2010 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='01 January 2010 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1262389674' post='2028236'] And I asked her why killing serial murderers (abortionists) in order to stop them from committing more murders is an act that should be condemned. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Because it is. Because we are better than that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='01 January 2010 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1262389674' post='2028236'] And I asked her why killing serial murderers (abortionists) in order to stop them from committing more murders is an act that should be condemned. [/quote] If you had the opportunity to kill an abortionist, would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='01 January 2010 - 09:04 PM' timestamp='1262397895' post='2028274'] If you had the opportunity to kill an abortionist, would you? [/quote] Would it be wrong? ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='01 January 2010 - 09:07 PM' timestamp='1262398046' post='2028276'] Would it be wrong? [/quote] Well, there is that little tablet called the Ten Commandments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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