Lying To Ourselves

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Happy_Catholic' date='31 December 2009 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1262292253' post='2027903']
Its the funny thing about Islam, I know quite a few Muslims and they are good peaceful people, however, none of them ever denounced those who were behind the 9/11 attacks or behind any of the terrorism. On one hand they talk about peace and being liberal and open minded, but on the other hand they won't speak out against those terrorists who harm.

As a Pro-Lifer, I can tell you when some idiot decides to blow up a clinic or snipe on an abortionist I get so mad and riled up God help the internet! Same with the sex scandals that rock the church on occasion. Being disgusted and chastising those who shoot abortionists does not make me any less Pro-Life. Demanding that paedophile priests be charged in the court system and sent to jail does not make me any less Catholic. So, really, it shouldn't make someone any less Muslim if they denounce what a terrorist does. If I was Muslim, I'd be doing everythign I coudl to distance myself and the faith I claim from those homicidal morons.

As a side note, I can't stand terrorists, they ruin it for everyone! I hate airport security, this talk of full body scanners and scanners that can see through your clothes, as a modest type that just makes me angry. I swear to God, if I was on a plane and some idiot pulled that muck, screw my Pro-Life convictions, I'd pummel his Koran ranting jackseat into the ground!!!

Anyone who thinks they can take me from my faith, by peaceful means or otherwise, is going to be in for a nasty surprise. God's on our side, remember!
[/quote]

Wow, excellent post. You are SPOT ON. Great minds think alike. Earlier I was saying to a few friends (in our Phatmass chat) that I have NEVER seen, read, or heard a Muslim renounce Islamic terrorism. In fact, I was reading an Imam's blog around the time of Ft. Hood, and was APPALLED by what he wrote. He wrote a very vague condolence to the families but then ranted about the Muslims who are dying over in the Middle East.

[CatherineM]

Which country was it that held telethons for the families of the 9-11 terrorists? I was thinking about that right after the Ft. Hood shooting wondering if they would do the same to raise money for his legal defense.

I had never really thought about it before, but when something like this happens, there are lots of people on TV talking about how Islam is a religion of peace, but they don't actually say that what the person did was horrific to them.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote]On Christmas Day, a Muslim fanatic attempted to butcher hundreds of Christians (dead Jews would've been a bonus). Our response? Have airport security analyze the contents of grandma's mini-bottle of shampoo -- we don't want to "discriminate."

With our lies, self-deception and self-flagellation, we're terror's little helpers.[/quote]

He is very persuasive and does raise some good points.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='31 December 2009 - 02:33 PM' timestamp='1262288033' post='2027879']
They WANT the world. Sequestering them will do nothing. You remember what one of our Muslim friends said: "Islam will dominate the world."
[/quote]
Oh yes...what was I thinking? I guess the West deserves what terrorists dish out, 'cos after all we're a bunch of infidels...

[quote name='Hilde' date='31 December 2009 - 02:09 PM' timestamp='1262286597' post='2027866']
Oh yes, there seems to be a link. But what to do?
[/quote]
I suggest praying the Rosary against these terrorist attacks. In October 1571, St. Pope Pius V (the first Dominican Pope,) called for all Christians to pray the Holy Rosary so that the tiny, Christian make-shift fleet would be victorious over the larger, stronger moslem fleet at the Battle of Lepanto, Italy. Through the powerful intercession of Our Lady, the Christian fleet was able to overcome the moslems and prevent their intended invasion of the european continent...

The Holy Rosary was God's weapon of choice against the invaders...

[quote name='Happy_Catholic' date='31 December 2009 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1262292253' post='2027903']
Its the funny thing about Islam, I know quite a few Muslims and they are good peaceful people, however, none of them ever denounced those who were behind the 9/11 attacks or behind any of the terrorism. On one hand they talk about peace and being liberal and open minded, but on the other hand they won't speak out against those terrorists who harm.

As a Pro-Lifer, I can tell you when some idiot decides to blow up a clinic or snipe on an abortionist I get so mad and riled up God help the internet! Same with the sex scandals that rock the church on occasion. Being disgusted and chastising those who shoot abortionists does not make me any less Pro-Life. Demanding that paedophile priests be charged in the court system and sent to jail does not make me any less Catholic. So, really, it shouldn't make someone any less Muslim if they denounce what a terrorist does. If I was Muslim, I'd be doing everythign I coudl to distance myself and the faith I claim from those homicidal morons.

As a side note, I can't stand terrorists, they ruin it for everyone! I hate airport security, this talk of full body scanners and scanners that can see through your clothes, as a modest type that just makes me angry. [s]I swear to God[/s], if I was on a plane and some idiot pulled that muck, screw my Pro-Life convictions, I'd pummel his Koran ranting jackseat into the ground!!!

Anyone who thinks they can take me from my faith, by peaceful means or otherwise, is going to be in for a nasty surprise. God's on our side, remember!
[/quote]
great post...!

Edited December 31, 2009 by dominicansoul

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='31 December 2009 - 02:33 PM' timestamp='1262288033' post='2027879']
They WANT the world. Sequestering them will do nothing. You remember what one of our Muslim friends said: "Islam will dominate the world."
[/quote]


Do the Muslim Chechens want that, or do they want they mainly Christian Russians to end their centuries long imperialist campaign to conquer them?

What did the mathematical logician Kurt Godel say? "All generalizations, with the possible exception of this one, are false."

It's ,broadly speaking, not political correctness that leads analysts to dismiss sloppy generalizations like yours. Most Chechen separatists, historically speaking, have more in common with South Irish Catholic separatists than they do Osama Bin Laden. I remember watching a boring and generic documentary by that guy from "Supersize me", it was called something like "Where in the World is Osama Bin Laden?". He asked an old Afghan man where he thought Osama Bin Laden was, he turned to a younger man and asked in Pashtun, "who's Osama Bin laden" the younger man replied, "He's that guy who knocked the American's buildings down", the old man replied "Well f*** Osama Bin Laden and f*** America".

Muslims are not monolithic. Muslim societies are not monolithic. Different Muslims and different Muslim societies have different political goals and motivating forces. Different Muslim terrorist groups have different goals and motivations.

Osama Bin Laden is a follower of Seyyed Qutb and believes in his general vision, to liberate men from tyranny (which Qutb defined as being subjugated to any law implemented by another man, only God was sovereign, only he could decree laws that men could legitimately be subject to, and any man ruling another implementing any law other than God's law is blasphemy). Dudayev, the first President of Chechnya after Yeltsin allowed former states under Russian rule to "grab" autonomy, obviously did not even almost share Qutb's vision of the world. Neither have most Chechen leaders and warlords. Some of them want an Islamically run state, some are pure nationalists who just want a secular modern government, some are gangsters, some are Al-Queda and see themselves as fighting on merely one front of a global Jihad against various infidel powers.

Even in the small spectrum of separatist movements in Chechnya you have significant differences of goals. You also have vast differences in motivations. Amongst the Chechens you also have a wide spectrum. Is a given Chechen fighter fighting with whatever group he is with because of pure ideological motivation? For money? Or because some drunk Russian soldier raped his sister?

That's not political correctness, it is cold, objective, fact based observation.

This is like the narrative of a united communist order that cased numerous Western Policy Makers to pursue destructive policies. It cased them to pay inordinate attention to organic nationalist movements whose only real connection to communism was its expediency in getting them aid from the Soviet Union and supplying them with an established and respected reservoir of political metaphors and the like. If you treat Chechen separatists like Al-Queda, simply by virtue of the fact that both are made up of Muslims and use a loosely similar reservoir of Islamic metaphors that are culturally familiar to the larger populace they want to foster sympathy with, then you are going to have a very warped view of the world and make serious strategic blunders. Chechen separatism is both not a threat to us and probably a movement we should probably generally and vaguely have sympathy with. Al-Queda is a serious enemy capable of causing serious, though not existential, damage to us and our allies. If we do something stupid, like buy into the Russian claim that they are fighting the same enemy we are and they are holding back the "green wave" (this being a recycling of their tsarist era claim of being Europe's bulwark against the 'yellow wave'), and treat organic Chechen separatism like we do Al-Queda we are going to end up helping Al-Queda. We not only allow the Russian to continue their imperialist motivated atrocities, we give Al-Queda a great opening to bring Chechen movements into their orbit (and this is happening, Al-Queda get's to say "see, the US is at war with Islam, why else eould they side with the Christian Russians against you?" despite what the truth is it gives Al-Queda wonderful propaganda).

Edited January 1, 2010 by Hassan

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Happy_Catholic' date='31 December 2009 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1262292253' post='2027903']
As a Pro-Lifer, I can tell you when some idiot decides to blow up a clinic or snipe on an abortionist I get so mad and riled up God help the internet! Same with the sex scandals that rock the church on occasion. Being disgusted and chastising those who shoot abortionists does not make me any less Pro-Life.
[/quote]

Happy,

Would it have been moral to shoot the kommandant of Auchwitz? How about Reinhard Heydrich?

~Sternhauser

[Winchester]

[img]http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/colonel_klink.jpg[/img]
Vot are you implying?

[Veridicus]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='31 December 2009 - 01:33 PM' timestamp='1262288033' post='2027879']
They WANT the world. Sequestering them will do nothing. You remember what one of our Muslim friends said: "Islam will dominate the world."
[/quote]

They [i]do [/i]want the world. And they [i]don't[/i] have to use force. Look at Western Europe. They are simply outbreeding and out-immigrating the native birth-controlled secular population. It's evolution in microcosm and the Mohammedians will outbreed our enlightened godless western culture...they don't need bombs to succeed.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='01 January 2010 - 01:31 AM' timestamp='1262327464' post='2028022']
They [i]do [/i]want the world. And they [i]don't[/i] have to use force. Look at Western Europe. They are simply outbreeding and out-immigrating the native birth-controlled secular population. It's evolution in microcosm and the Mohammedians will outbreed our enlightened godless western culture...they don't need bombs to succeed.
[/quote]

Oh this is so true.

[Happy_Catholic]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='31 December 2009 - 07:58 PM' timestamp='1262307522' post='2027977']
Happy,

Would it have been moral to shoot the kommandant of Auchwitz? How about Reinhard Heydrich?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Depends on the variables you imply:

Are these men sitting in a cafe having tea? In which case, are they still in Nazi occupied Europe where their actions are legal or justified by their superiors? Or is this post war?

Regardless, under such circumstances all efforts should be made to arrest them or capture them with intent of having them tried later. Concurrently, the death penalty is not moral.

Or are they lining up hundreds of Jewish children to shoot?

In this situation, who is doing the shooting? Do one of the children have access to a fire arm? Or perhaps a resistance cell happens upon it? Again, all efforts should be made to capture them alive. If they are shot in a cross fire, it can be argued, morally so, that their deaths were a result of a conflict of war, where both parties, or at least them, are aware of the risks involved.

However, while shooting them may be justified, it is not moral.

God made it explicitly clear we are not to usurp His position by ending life.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Happy_Catholic

[Happy_Catholic]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='01 January 2010 - 01:31 AM' timestamp='1262327464' post='2028022']
They [i]do [/i]want the world. And they [i]don't[/i] have to use force. Look at Western Europe. They are simply outbreeding and out-immigrating the native birth-controlled secular population. It's evolution in microcosm and the Mohammedians will outbreed our enlightened godless western culture...they don't need bombs to succeed.
[/quote]

You are correct.

I read something a while ago, an editor was making a comment about a Protestant minster in Britain who had written a piece about how she was going to be environmentally responsible and only have two children, to ensure that the world wouldn't be over populated and its resources exhausted, that way, her two children would have a nice world. However, the editor went onto comment about a Palestine suicide bomber who was the 65year old mother of 20 children and had already clocked up 50 grandchildren.

The editor went on to ask "who does that Protestant minster think is going to inherit the earth?"

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='01 January 2010 - 02:09 AM' timestamp='1262329741' post='2028030']
Oh this is so true.
[/quote]


No, no it's not.

The total Muslims population will expand in Europe but, like all immigrant populations, the trends amongst the Muslim populations levels of and assimilates to the larger European population the longer the famlies are in Europe. As women get more educated, they have fewer children. The longer they live in secular societies the more they assimilate to those societies. That's the trend of other immigrant populations. So far the data suggusts that the Muslim immigrants are generally following this trend. That doesn't mean that every Muslim family is assimilating, but as an aggregate that's the trend. Yes, some families will still have ten kids. Some Irish Catholic famlies still have large numbers of children. But with regard to the overall trend the protestant American nativists claims had abot the same validity as yours. They also worked from the same inclinations and temperments which motivate you.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='01 January 2010 - 01:31 AM' timestamp='1262327464' post='2028022']
They [i]do [/i]want the world. And they [i]don't[/i] have to use force. Look at Western Europe. They are simply outbreeding and out-immigrating the native birth-controlled secular population. It's evolution in microcosm and the Mohammedians will outbreed our enlightened godless western culture...they don't need bombs to succeed.
[/quote]


Most immigrant populations have short temr exponential growth. But they level off. In several generations the Muslim population in Europe will be much larger than it was one hundred years ago, but it will be far from a majority, largely secularized, and over all assimilated to the larger Europen society.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Hassan' date='01 January 2010 - 04:14 AM' timestamp='1262337295' post='2028051']
Most immigrant populations have short temr exponential growth. But they level off. In several generations the Muslim population in Europe will be much larger than it was one hundred years ago, but it will be far from a majority, largely secularized, and over all assimilated to the larger Europen society.
[/quote]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcLMH8pwusw[/media]

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='01 January 2010 - 01:31 AM' timestamp='1262327464' post='2028022']
They [i]do [/i]want the world. And they [i]don't[/i] have to use force. Look at Western Europe. They are simply outbreeding and out-immigrating the native birth-controlled secular population. It's evolution in microcosm and the Mohammedians will outbreed our enlightened godless western culture...they don't need bombs to succeed.
[/quote]

What I tend to notice is that the second and third generations usually assimilate into the country better than their parents. Even if this doesn't result in a complete loss of their faith it does generally lead to version of Islam that can be easily integrated into Western society. I know a Muslim girl who holds nothing against me for being gay despite the fact that here grandparents probably think I should be executed. We can help this process of integrating Muslims into our society by being open and understanding. We have to ask ourselves why so many young Muslims brought up in Western countries have turned to home grown terrorism? More often than not it's not because they feel some calling from Allah but because they've been rejected by wider society and will forever be confined to ethnic enclaves and the "not really one of us" category. Broad generalizations such as the ones exhibited on this forum don't help.