Religious Habits

[Maggyie]

Unfortunately the phenomenon of decline in religious life is not limited to those not wearing habits. You don't have to look very hard to find so, so many traditional communities wearing the full or modified habit in complete decline.

From the communities I am personally aware of, the non-habited and the habited convents are getting about the same number of (persevering) vocations, however the non-habited orders were larger to begin with, and their numbers register as a decline. The habited orders are usually newer or smaller to begin with and so the small number of vocations they receive does register as growth. However, with a few well-publicized exceptions, hardly ANY religious communities of any stripe are having great success with recruiting.

The habit is required by the Church. There is no getting around it. Yes, we still have to respect the nonhabited Sisters, but at the same time.... bleh.

And yet, many of the young women whom I have met in "discernment world" as I call it, are attracted to the externals like habits and veils because of the aesthetic associated with them. For them the habit is just as much a "fashion item" as a nice pair of heels is to a nonhabited Sister. They like how it looks and would like to acquire one for themselves; they derive pleasure from thinking about how they will look in photographs and how they will appear to others etc. Sometimes these ladies are not aware of this dynamic themselves, but it comes out in their conversation. Obviously these are not usually genuine vocations and if they do enter, they come back pretty quickly.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='nunsense' date='27 December 2009 - 02:59 PM' timestamp='1261888198' post='2026460']
I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the Council's statement "dress in a simple and modest manner with an appropriate symbol" as I believe that this means ALL sisters should be wearing the SAME simple and modest clothing - not whatever they want on the day. The same, uniform habit should be worn by all sisters, with an appropriate symbol or crucifix, etc.... yes, this means to wear a habit.


[/quote]

Hi Nunsense.........I guess both our interpretations of the Holy Father's words have equal weight when all is said and done. I do love to see nuns and religious sisters in the habit, but then I can appreciate the reasons of those Sisters and nuns I know that are not in habit and quite personally cannot understand why there is not room for both and tend towards that there is as far as The Church may be concerned at this point in time. Certainly in the religious and monastic orders with which I have contact whether one wears secular clothing or modified religious habit is optional and in these orders there are certainly both present - the habited and non habited. Nor can I understand why either party (habited or non habited) should feel that the other should be surpressed or question motivations and this is what creates the difficulty for me personally. I really do think that at this point in time we are a Church in transition in many ways, and not only in how religious life is expressed. In the Catholic Catechism which I have already quoted The Church is open to new forms of religious life and this to me is wonderful and indicates that The Holy Spirit can and maybe will move in directions not yet even sighted.
[quote]Once again, I feel that your statement ... "Sometimes those who are different or think different from a person is considered as a challenge and contradiction to that person (which it is not) who is very often seeking a sort of affirmation by having all be and think as they do." ... is very uncharitable in its meaning and expression. [/quote]
I certainly meant no uncharitableness anywhere but perhaps perspective and judgement cast that light and perhaps perspective and judgement was more true than my intentions which was only to make a general observation qualified by "sometimes" - there was no meaning behind what I had to say other than what I said. Since you have sighted uncharitablenesss, I do sincerely apologise, for nothing offensive whatsoever to anyone or anyones in particular was intented. It was merely a general observation about human behaviour sometimes.

[quote] To me, the very fact that the habit is a blessed sacramental makes it a very important essential to the life, as well as a visible witness OF that way of life. The veil and scapular are kissed every time they are put on - this is a very important symbol of religious life![/quote] What you state above is very true and I personally would uphold it in every way once the habit is blessed.


I think probably the case for or against the religious habit is one that will go round in circles with no one party perhaps being convinced by the case presented by the other party. It seems that opinion re the religious habit probably is more or less polarized. Personally, I will be quite happy, more than happy, with whatever Rome should state. And if the words written to convey what The Church is declaring are misunderstood/misinterpreted then to my mind it is up to The Church to clearly clarify if this is necessary according to The Church.

Blessings and Peace........Barb
Our Lady of God Counsel pray for us.

Happy Christmas Season all and Feast of The Holy Family - and a joyous 2010.

Edited December 27, 2009 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Quoting : 'Maggie'
[quote]Unfortunately the phenomenon of decline in religious life is not limited to those not wearing habits. You don't have to look very hard to find so, so many traditional communities wearing the full or modified habit in complete decline.

From the communities I am personally aware of, the non-habited and the habited convents are getting about the same number of (persevering) vocations, however the non-habited orders were larger to begin with, and their numbers register as a decline. The habited orders are usually newer or smaller to begin with and so the small number of vocations they receive does register as growth. However, with a few well-publicized exceptions, hardly ANY religious communities of any stripe are having great success with recruiting.

The habit is required by the Church. There is no getting around it. Yes, we still have to respect the nonhabited Sisters, but at the same time.... bleh.

And yet, many of the young women whom I have met in "discernment world" as I call it, are attracted to the externals like habits and veils because of the aesthetic associated with them. For them the habit is just as much a "fashion item" as a nice pair of heels is to a nonhabited Sister. They like how it looks and would like to acquire one for themselves; they derive pleasure from thinking about how they will look in photographs and how they will appear to others etc. Sometimes these ladies are not aware of this dynamic themselves, but it comes out in their conversation. Obviously these are not usually genuine vocations and if they do enter, they come back pretty quickly.[/quote]

Some interesting comments I thought. Statistics can indeed made to be say most anything one chooses them to say and I really do think that actual vocations would be better counted by those proceeding to perpetual or life vows or whatever is the final step of a particular religious vocation - i.e. stability within religious life and a congregation be it habited or non habited, rather than by counting those who actually take the very first step of entering a congregation. Not only this, if one considers the amazing amount of vocations or those entering the religious life and priesthood especially in the 1950's......a conclusion could have been made from that, except that post V2 there was the mass exodus from the priesthood and religious life. This has been blamed on V2 itself, but I tend to think that if those who did enter in the 50's were sound and holy vocations, there would not have been the mass exodus post V2. I really do not think personally that counting the heads going into the priesthood and religious life is necessarily a marker of any sort of success of the habit v the non habit religious orders as a defining factor in a sound religious vocation. Oh dear, I am not too sure that will read as I meant it to read!

I do know of one habited monastic order that does seem to attract young entrances - but they do not all proceed to final vows. This same monastic order in habit has recently made a decision that has quite floored me. I don't want to state what that decision is as it may identify the Order concerned. Perhaps I am just easily floored after all!

If Rome does want all religious in some form of religious habit, then I think Rome must make this very clear statement and actually order all religious into some form of religious habit. To be honest, research reveals that much info on the internet and I cannot be sure which source is reliable and which is not, that I remain unsure if Rome has actually so ordered all religious - and in clear and non ambiguous language that simply is not open to misinterpretation. Perhaps this defining moment re the habit or otherwise will come out of the current visitation of the American Religious Orders - perhpas the whole matter will remain under debate in The Church due to the fact that we are not getting a clear statement that we cannot misunderstand. After all very traditional and loyal Bishops are still consecrating religious who are non habited and personally I am assuming and "assuming" is the word that these Bishops would not be consecrating in clear defiance of Rome and Catholic Law.

Barb
Our Lady of God Counsel, pray for us.
Happy Christmas Season, Feast of The Holy Family and 2010.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' date='26 December 2009 - 08:27 AM' timestamp='1261778239' post='2026015']
Thomas Eugine does have a point -- sometimes there is such a focus on the habit that we forget that the more important part is how the sister is living religious life, not whether or not she is wearing a habit.

Both a sister in a habit and outside of a habit is a human being trying to live out what she is called to do -- to be a religous, and to aim towards sanctity.

Both sisters are able to be instruments of evangelization/conversion; as well as instruments of scandal/division.

Finally there are sisters in and out of habits that are walking saints, and unfortunately there are sisters in and out of habits that are not (and should not be in vows, period).

Praying for those sisters that are having a difficult time living their vows, and thanking the Lord for those who set an example to follow.
[/quote]


Excellent post - balanced insight. Thank you for what you have shared, and most especially the concluding paragraph above - well worth taking onboard and incorporating as a daily intention and a positive place to bow out of the thread with a new daily intention..........Barb

Our Lady of Good Counsel pray for us and for our coming new year.

Edited December 27, 2009 by BarbaraTherese

[organwerke]

Maybe this is a little off topic, but if I became a nun, I would choose an order with the habit.
But this is a personal feeling: what I would prefer if I were a nun.
But I don't judge at all, on the contrary, I really respect, those nuns who for a good reason in their charism don't wear the habit (because this helps them in their apostolic work or other reasons).
I don't have a good opinion instead of those orders that don't wear habits without a real, good reason.
I think of course that if we don't want to be wrong in our opinions we should know the charism, the history, the aim etc. of these orders.
But if it is true that it is unfair to judge badly [i]in general[/i] those nuns who don't wear the habit, I think that it is true as well that I can't have, in general, a good opinion of [b]all[/b] nuns and orders that don't wear the habit.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' date='27 December 2009 - 07:34 PM' timestamp='1261902851' post='2026498']
Hi Nunsense.........I guess both our interpretations of the Holy Father's words have equal weight when all is said and done. I do love to see nuns and religious sisters in the habit, but then I can appreciate the reasons of those Sisters and nuns I know that are not in habit and quite personally cannot understand why there is not room for both and tend towards that there is as far as The Church may be concerned at this point in time. Certainly in the religious and monastic orders with which I have contact whether one wears secular clothing or modified religious habit is optional and in these orders there are certainly both present - the habited and non habited. Nor can I understand why either party (habited or non habited) should feel that the other should be surpressed or question motivations and this is what creates the difficulty for me personally. I really do think that at this point in time we are a Church in transition in many ways, and not only in how religious life is expressed. In the Catholic Catechism which I have already quoted The Church is open to new forms of religious life and this to me is wonderful and indicates that The Holy Spirit can and maybe will move in directions not yet even sighted. [/quote]

Since you appreciate the reasons why these nuns choose not to wear a habit, could you perhaps share their reasons with us? One thing I have found in discussing this topic with many unhabited sisters is that they have no truly good reason for their decision. Here in Australia, we certainly are not persecuted for our faith, like in China, and the only reasons they could give me were ones that were basically focused on self and not God. But as I posted before, I am open to valid and solid reasons for this decision. Otherwise the canons make it quite clear that a common form of habit is required.


[quote]
What you state above is very true and I personally would uphold it in every way once the habit is blessed.[/quote]

and every habit is blessed, so they should be wearing them (unless they have a good and valid reason.... still waiting for this one though.


[quote] I think probably the case for or against the religious habit is one that will go round in circles with no one party perhaps being convinced by the case presented by the other party. It seems that opinion re the religious habit probably is more or less polarized. Personally, I will be quite happy, more than happy, with whatever Rome should state. And if the words written to convey what The Church is declaring are misunderstood/misinterpreted then to my mind it is up to The Church to clearly clarify if this is necessary according to The Church.
[/quote]

[quote] If Rome does want all religious in some form of religious habit, then I think Rome must make this very clear statement and actually order all religious into some form of religious habit. To be honest, research reveals that much info on the internet and I cannot be sure which source is reliable and which is not, that I remain unsure if Rome has actually so ordered all religious - and in clear and non ambiguous language that simply is not open to misinterpretation. Perhaps this defining moment re the habit or otherwise will come out of the current visitation of the American Religious Orders - perhpas the whole matter will remain under debate in The Church due to the fact that we are not getting a clear statement that we cannot misunderstand. After all very traditional and loyal Bishops are still consecrating religious who are non habited and personally I am assuming and "assuming" is the word that these Bishops would not be consecrating in clear defiance of Rome and Catholic Law.

Barb

[/quote]

I think that Rome has made it very clear over the years what she wants, but has stopped short of "ordering" religious to do it because no rule can apply in all cases (such as persecution).

Even John Paul II in an address to women religious in Rome in 1978 (emphasis mine) said...

[i]"This vocation is a special treasure of the Church, which can never cease to pray that the Spirit of Jesus Christ will bring forth religious vocations in souls. They are, in fact, both for the community of the People of God, and for the "world", a living sign of the "future life": a sign which, at the same time, is rooted ([u]also by means of your religious habit[/u]) in the everyday life of the Church and of society, and permeates its most delicate tissues."[/i]

As you pointed out, there are many instances on the Internet where the Vatican can be quoted on this issue. To me, it is very much like a teenager who uses every opportunity to evade what their parent is asking them to do by rationalizing, justifying and making excuses and reasons as to why they shouldn't follow the directions. Yes, this is a hard time for many communities, but mainly because they have gone too far out on a limb, and now need to realize that they are in danger of falling off the branch out there, so they need to make efforts return to the main trunk of the tree for safety. The habit is one of the most important issues for women religious today because it reflects a state of mind of willful resistance (if not outright disobedience in some cases) to the higher authority of Rome. As Brides of Christ (and some sisters even hate being called this any more), religious are called to obedience in all things - not self-expression and self-fulfillment and self, self, self.

So, in the end, what are the really good reasons for NOT wearing a habit, especially today when secularism is rampant, and the Church needs witnesses more than ever before? I would really like to know. pax

[organwerke]

[quote name='nunsense' date='27 December 2009 - 03:04 PM' timestamp='1261919098' post='2026523']

So, in the end, what are the really good reasons for NOT wearing a habit, especially today when secularism is rampant, and the Church needs witnesses more than ever before? I would really like to know. pax
[/quote]

Well, I don't know many sisters without habits, and many others who haven't probably belong to secularot third orders.
But I know for example that some missionaries don't wear the habit in order to be closer to the people, and also in developped countries some orders don't have habit in order to have more easily contacts with atheist/agnostic/non-chistian etc people: since you know many people have a big hatred toward religious persons (even if they live in countries in which there aren't physical persecutions) and they would never talk or have contacts with a person who wears a religious habit.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='organwerke' date='28 December 2009 - 12:25 AM' timestamp='1261920325' post='2026528']
Well, I don't know many sisters without habits, and many others who haven't probably belong to secularot third orders.
But I know for example that some missionaries don't wear the habit in order to be closer to the people, and also in developped countries some orders don't have habit in order to have more easily contacts with atheist/agnostic/non-chistian etc people: since you know many people have a big hatred toward religious persons (even if they live in countries in which there aren't physical persecutions) and they would never talk or have contacts with a person who wears a religious habit.
[/quote]

Well, I personally don't think that secular clothes makes one any closer to the people than a habit does, in fact I have found the opposite (from having worn a habit and been outside the enclosure on two occasions), but I am speaking generally here and not specifically, since I don't know which communities you are referring to, and perhaps in their countries, the habit might be a barrier. This is one of those situations where there might be a good and valid reason but which should be considered on a case by case basis. When missionaries first started working, they all wore habits, and it doesn't seem to have hindered their work. Mary MacKillop wore a habit and managed quite well both in the cities and in her work with the aboriginals. Her sisters of today do not wear a habit, and they are invisible now, and vocations are very poor despite their foundress being made a saint!

In countries where religious persecution is a problem, I have already said that this might warrant not wearing a habit, although a very simple and uniform dress could be used in almost every country, because even Muslims veil. If we are simply talking atheists or agnostics, then this argument doesn't hold water. Almost all of my family are atheist or agnostic, and they are the first to tell me that they miss seeing the nuns in habits. My sister told me that the Catholic Church seems almost invisible these days and she wonders why the nuns don't identify themselves any more. I took her to an EF Mass for Christmas and she loved all of the ritual and tradition - and she is an agnostic. I actually think the Church would attract MORE agnostics and atheists through a visible witness, than actively discourage them! After all, this is a very secular age, and by being invisible, we are only playing into the hands of the Prince of this world! He certainly shouldn't be getting our help! Jesus told us that if we are embarrassed about Him before men, then He will be embarrassed about us before his Father. We should be proud to be be visible witnesses for Him, especially those who are consecrated to Him. There aren't as many opportunities for witnessing these days when even a prayer is considering reasons for dismissal from a job, so any act of visible acknowledgment of Christ's love is well worth any amount of effort involved. The religious should be held accountable to a higher standard because of the great grace they have been given in a religious vocation. Sure it can be confronting to stand out so much by wearing a habit, but who said it was about comfort anyway? Jesus was scorned and spit on and despised for His witness to the Father, so what's a little personal discomfort to be singled out or noticed?

And the arguments about women wanting to be religious just to wear a habit is so silly. Anyone who does enter for this reason, certainly isn't going to last, so that problem is solved by itself. The habit isn't for the individual, it is for Jesus and the Church. And if it hurts a little to wear it (through mental or emotional embarrassment or some other reason), so much the better, personal martyrdom is a gift that can be offered to Jesus.

Once again, if there are communities who are perfectly confident that their reasons for not wearing a habit are solid and valid, then they will be more than happy to discuss these reasons and to make themselves understood by others, and will not get defensive when questioned. I have yet to meet a community like this however, and I have personally questioned many non-habited sisters. On several occasions, the conversation started out discussing the non-habit issue and ended up with complaints against the "oppressive male hierarchy" of Rome that tries to tell them what to do. I usually end the conversation at this point. But I am totally open to trying to understand some really good reasons, from some really faithful communities.

Edited December 27, 2009 by nunsense

[organwerke]

Dear nunsense,
I simply mentioned a few reasons that I've heard and that are likely used to explain the non-habit (but I have to say that these reasons came most of all from persons who aren't religious: there are for example lay institutions that, even if they don't have vows, they as well have a sort of celibacy for the Kingdom).
But I completely agree with you that all religious persons should wear a habit, unless there isn't a very good reason not to do it.

[dominicansoul]

I believe the Church has stated time and again, that religious should wear habits...so when I see "sisters" not wearing habits, it is easily identifiable as disobedience...

in some cases, where a religous community is still in the beginnings of their foundation, a habit is not usually confirmed yet...or as in the case with Mother Seton's order...

I would like to share an experience I had while I was in the convent. I know that many of my Sisters did not hold prejudice against those sisters who did not wear habits. I met one such sister from Ireland, and she moved me profoundly by her words of wisdom. It seemed to me that the Holy Spirit had touched her heart in such a way as she knew the beauty of giving one's life to Jesus totally...

In her case, she did not wear the habit, not out of disobedience...but out of obedience. The area of Ireland she works in is prejudiced towards Catholics and religious can become targets. Out of obedience to her superiors, she was asked not to wear her habit, which could become dangerous for her.

But let me tell you of what happened to me one weekend in the convent. Me and my sisters were asked to participate in a Vocations retreat for youth at a huge parish in Illinois. Many communities participated in this event. Many sisters who did not wear habits were present at this retreat. I was VERY shocked at the ill treatment me and my sisters received from many of those un-habited sisters. Many of them I met were not friendly, they seemed angry...almost bitter...and they were not happy that me and my sisters were young, habit wearing sisters. They did not ask me or my sisters what we practiced, what we believed, what we stood for...they obviously judged us from the moment they saw us walking in all dressed in habits... I was told we were "old fashioned," "a step back for women in the Church", "trouble-makers" etc.

I'll never forget that experience. I was very surprised. I was shocked at those communities of sisters who showed me that there IS an agenda AGAINST authentic religous life in the Church. These women have taken it upon themselves to "re-write" in their own minds what religious life is. I feel obligated to say..their creations cannot be from the Almighty God... We witnessed several of this communities booths...and what we found was very surprising...many of them were advertising new age techniques, earth worship, eastern asian mysticism such as buddhism, taoism...i would even venture to say some of their ideas were outright demonic...and anyone practicing such "meditation" could easily open doors to Satan and his minions...

We were literally hissed at, growled at, snapped at...as if these women were possessed by something...

But truth always prevails. The youth groups that were gathered for this huge event were very open towards those communities whose religious wore habits. They were a little more shy towards those who didn't. At one question and answer session, one young lady asked one of my Sisters, "Why do you wear one of those, while that Sister over there does not?" And the non-habited sister went on to say that Vatican II gave them the right not to have to wear such an oppressive garment. My sister quickly and charitably corrected her and said, Vatican II never stated such a thing, in fact the Church has always said religous must wear a garment identifying one's state in religious life. The young lady who asked the question went on to say that she liked the habit more, and to that, the huge crowd of youth confirmed that with claps and whistles....

it isn't just a black and white issue. There is a hidden agenda of women who do a grave disservice against our Church because they have decided that their feminist ideals must overshadow the reasons for authentic religious life in the Church. Authentic religious life is all about service to God and to the Church. Authentic religious are called to SERVE and to live in SERVICE. Religious women are called to become BRIDES of CHRIST. Many of these terms are offensive to these women who do not wear habits. They don't consider themselves "Brides of Christ." And they DO NOT wish to wear their WEDDING GARMENT which is what the habit IS! If that is oppressive to some women, they should never have become sisters in the first place.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='27 December 2009 - 01:09 PM' timestamp='1261933745' post='2026551']
But let me tell you of what happened to me one weekend in the convent. Me and my sisters were asked to participate in a Vocations retreat for youth at a huge parish in Illinois. Many communities participated in this event. Many sisters who did not wear habits were present at this retreat. I was VERY shocked at the ill treatment me and my sisters received from many of those un-habited sisters. Many of them I met were not friendly, they seemed angry...almost bitter...and they were not happy that me and my sisters were young, habit wearing sisters. They did not ask me or my sisters what we practiced, what we believed, what we stood for...they obviously judged us from the moment they saw us walking in all dressed in habits... I was told we were "old fashioned," "a step back for women in the Church", "trouble-makers" etc.

I'll never forget that experience. I was very surprised. I was shocked at those communities of sisters who showed me that there IS an agenda AGAINST authentic religous life in the Church. These women have taken it upon themselves to "re-write" in their own minds what religious life is. I feel obligated to say..their creations cannot be from the Almighty God... We witnessed several of this communities booths...and what we found was very surprising...many of them were advertising new age techniques, earth worship, eastern asian mysticism such as buddhism, taoism...i would even venture to say some of their ideas were outright demonic...and anyone practicing such "meditation" could easily open doors to Satan and his minions...

We were literally hissed at, growled at, snapped at...as if these women were possessed by something...
[/quote]

I think what the original poster was getting at was this -- to not judge those who do not (or do) wear a habit. To judge them by their actions, what they do, ok -- but not simply judge them as being bad sisters, or being liberal for not wearing a habit. The same goes for those who do wear habits -- you can't simply judge them as being good or bad, liberal or not because they are in a habit.

The fact that the sisters who were not in habits were judging harshly those that were is just as bad as when sisters who are in habits judge harshly those who are not. (and I've seen that too)

So -- regardless of position, whether or not one believes that a religious should or should not be in habits, charity is key.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' date='27 December 2009 - 02:18 PM' timestamp='1261941492' post='2026576']
I think what the original poster was getting at was this -- to not judge those who do not (or do) wear a habit. To judge them by their actions, what they do, ok -- but not simply judge them as being bad sisters, or being liberal for not wearing a habit. The same goes for those who do wear habits -- you can't simply judge them as being good or bad, liberal or not because they are in a habit.

The fact that the sisters who were not in habits were judging harshly those that were is just as bad as when sisters who are in habits judge harshly those who are not. (and I've seen that too)

So -- regardless of position, whether or not one believes that a religious should or should not be in habits, charity is key.
[/quote]
i understand, but I respectable disagree...like I said, it is not as simple as that...

in some cases, we MUST "judge" in order to clarify confusion and chaos that erupt from false religious communities who neither follow the Church nor wish to serve Her in the capacity that a religious community MUST.

The other day, I was at Mass, and a non-habited sister spoke after the homily. My first inclination was..."she doesn't represent authentic religious life." The first thing she said, was that she taught some courses at a retreat center on eastern asian mystical meditation...

So, my first inclination was justified...

we throw around the word "judge" all the time...the only "judgement" that is wrong is to judge a person's soul...we cannot say, that soul is in hell..or that soul is going to hell..or that soul is not loved by God...BUT it IS our responsibility to judge what is right and what is wrong. it IS our responsibility to judge whether or not a person is actually propagating the Faith or propagating an agenda that goes against the Church. Charity is key, and the most charitable act is the act of correction. We cannot correct the error if we don't judge that it is error in the first place...

[Indwelling Trinity]

I too as a religious have had the sorrow to experience the scorn of many un-habited religious. Even back in the seventies i lived with two sisters from different communities who joined ours and they told of how they even had their habits physically torn off from them by their own sisters. It was very traumatizing for them These are extreme cases but true.

I am also witness to a great increase of alcoholism, drug addiction, and sexual promiscuity among those religious not wearing habits. Yes this happens among religious wearing habits too, but not with the same frequency. The habit in addition to being a sacramental is also a protection for the individual. I doubt highly that a religious in habit would go and sit at a bar, or shoot cocaine in a habit and as for carnal relationships with others, I think the habit would be a reminder of ones vows to God and one would be very hesistant to scandalize the little ones in public where one is clearly identified. When i have said i have met sisters unhabited in these conditions i am not speaking of one but over three hundred.

I have also experienced seeing a sister say Holy Mass as she felt it was her right as a consecrated religious. Fifty other religious from different congregations were in attendance and all participated save myself. The priest present knelt for the sister's blessing at the end of mass.

To the sisters, they saw saying mass as a right denied to them by a male hierarchy. The sacrament of holy orders is NOT a right for anyone. It is a free gift of God in the way of vocation reserved only to men. Would i wish that women could say Mass? Yes... But obedience to the church comes first. I will not step out of God's will for something that is not permitted by Peter, whom Christ placed at the head of the church.

What i have said above being done, is no longer the exception and i think this is part of the reason for the investigation by the church of possible abuses.

Not all Non habited religious do these things by any means. But there is a significant group out there who are out to show the church or male hierarchy that they will no longer tolerate what they see as oppression.

I have never witnessed a habited religious saying mass. If you read Sister Schneiders posts, she characterizes her obedience to god alone and not through the church. I am afraid many are in her boat.When i made my vows it was in the hands of my superior.

I am not sure but maybe ridding oneself of the habit without true cause may be the first step to renouncing the yoke that one has taken through holy vows.

We are all human and as human beings we go to God body mind and soul as a whole it is called unity of spirit. Unbalance any of these and you no longer have true unity, if that makes any sense. I worship God with my soul, mind and body as a religious and one impacts the other. I think this is the reason for the use of sacramentals in the church. It allows the physical body to participate in the interior disposition of the soul. So when i wear my habit, I am physically taking up the yoke of my profession to Him as sign that i am my beloved's and my beloved is unto me. It is an outward sign of an interior reality of my espousal to Jesus by my vows of Obedience, chastity and poverty desiring to cling to him alone whom i have chosen to belong too ever more perfectly each day.

I still have no judgment for unhabited religious but only wish to point out signs of danger to ones vocation it can predispose one too who chooses not to wear it out of self will rather than true need. The current argument is that we are responsible committed adults. Well so am I and many others but i still am tempted and fall into sin and if I put my hand in the fire i will get burnt!

Many of these religious now are very selective in their spirituality seeing no need to follow the teachings of the church in their totality. Maybe if they wish to continue to do so there should be another state of life other than religious life for them.

I was always taught that one is a religious first and professional second by virtue of my vows; and it is to that first that I give preeminence or I am no longer a religious but merely a social worker, teacher, doctor etc...

Sister Schneiders point that many communities were forced into the monastic mold while holding down exterior apostolate may be true in some regards but i believe that the holy spirit is has also been continuously at work throughout the ages through the intercession of the church. Religious life is not a democracy where majority rules.

If that is our basic premise as religious, them maybe one should not be a religious as in the vow of obedience we freely surrender our free will to God as expressed through our superiors. Catholicism is not a cult and we as religious have many years to discern before taking final vows. If we cannot accept what is demanded then I think it is best we should leave and find another more compatible route in serving God.

Obedience is by no means always easy, in fact at times it is downright hard but given in love for God it become one of the most beautiful things a religious can offer, for through it she becomes like her spouse who was obedient unto death in love of the Father and for the salvation of souls. Is that not the whole raison d'etre of religious life to be formed into the image and likeness of Gods only and beloved son in an act of total love and immolation? To be intimately united to God in the union of the trinitarian life?

I am by no means a rigid traditionalist, but if it works within the framework of the faith i have freely professed through baptism and holy confirmation of those baptismal vows, and finally by ratification of those promises in the form of religious vows, Then for me this is the way to go for me to go to God.

Mother Teresa once taught me a personal lesson when i was a novice. One day I did not go out with the others to the poor. I was a teenager and was already longing for the enclosed life. When i Spoke my fault to Mother as was our custom, she was quite serious about this infraction and told me did you not realize that you were being disobedient to your calling and neglectful of the poor? She went on to tell me that if my word was not good and if I did not honor it, all the rest would be a lie to God taking back what i had freely offered Him. Her words were sharper than the penance I endured after them.

To this day I have never forgotten those words of Mother and the look in her eyes.When she had to be she could be quite severe.

The giving of my word to God and doing my best to live it has become paramount in my life of consecration. Do I fall? Laughing constantly, but i trust in God's mercy, dust myself off aand begin anew; but Now if I do not truly mean what i say I will not say it; for to give it my word accepting in obedience all that my words it imply whether I like it or not determines the validity of my vow of obedience which i profesed before God.

My point being that part of my obedience is wearing of the religious habit. I gave my word to obey and rome tells us that with the exception of extroardinary cases, we are to wear it at least in public.

And so, there may be things I wish were different in the church, but in faith for me, obedience is the true fruit of love with the caveat that is does not go against faith an morals.

Laughing here... Now have I completely confused you all?

Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity

Edited December 27, 2009 by Indwelling Trinity

[brightsadness]

I hope this doesn't sound too naive but as a young looking (I'm 25) attractive women currently discerning a possible religious vocation and working in a professional position, dressing modestly and appropriately is a challenge. Being pleasant and not getting hit on is difficult too. Besides all the meaning the habit has for me, I think it's also important as a sign tht says "not available" just like a wedding ring or engagement ring is. Especially when interacting in the secular or professional arenas.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='27 December 2009 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1261943062' post='2026580']
i understand, but I respectable disagree...like I said, it is not as simple as that...

in some cases, we MUST "judge" in order to clarify confusion and chaos that erupt from false religious communities who neither follow the Church nor wish to serve Her in the capacity that a religious community MUST.

The other day, I was at Mass, and a non-habited sister spoke after the homily. My first inclination was..."she doesn't represent authentic religious life." The first thing she said, was that she taught some courses at a retreat center on eastern asian mystical meditation...

So, my first inclination was justified...

we throw around the word "judge" all the time...the only "judgement" that is wrong is to judge a person's soul...we cannot say, that soul is in hell..or that soul is going to hell..or that soul is not loved by God...BUT it IS our responsibility to judge what is right and what is wrong. it IS our responsibility to judge whether or not a person is actually propagating the Faith or propagating an agenda that goes against the Church. Charity is key, and the most charitable act is the act of correction. We cannot correct the error if we don't judge that it is error in the first place...
[/quote]

The fact that you automatically judged a religious (a non-habited sister) as not representing authentic religious life is what I am pointing to.

I understand that there are communities that are way out of line. But to judge before knowing the person is wrong. I say this in defense of those non-habited sisters who are excellent examples of religious.

I do not throw around the word "judge" lightly. I will simply say it this way -- do not judge a book by its cover. If subsequent actions give you sufficient information for judging a religious one way or another then by all means do so.

Finally -- you said "we cannot correct the error if we don't judge that it is error in the first place." I will leave the judgement of error to the Church -- especially with respect to those communities that do not use a habit. If the Church sees it to be in error then it will choose to correct.