Religious Habits

[tnavarro61]

I'm just so annoyed with an online group that I joined, which focuses much on religious habits.

I am not pointing out persons, or what. But let me tell you my side.

First, I would love to see religious in their habits. In fact I am so amazed with those who wear the traditional ones (like Mother Angelica's order, etc..). If people would see them, they would be reminded of their sacred service!

But what I am sad about is how SOME people judge the nuns who DON'T wear their religious habits. As if they're the worst in spiritual lives. As if religious habits tells the condition of their interior journey. As if there would be no saints if there are no religious habits.

I know that religious habits helps, but I think it's right if we do not judge habitless religious. I think it's right to respect them.

I know that there are liberal nuns, and they do not have religious habits. I know a nun who advocates women ordination. But not all habitless nuns are liberal.

As far as I know the Daughters of Charity are founded with no religious habits. Now some people tries to revive their cornette which is very costly, which is very hard things to do. [b]I don't know[/b] if there are people who wants to revive the cornette just out of superfluosity.

Let's focus first on our God. Let's focus on the Divine Master. Though I want all nuns to wear their habits, but I have and want to respect how the Holy Spirit is leading them. Let's us not go into that thinking, "oh they have no habits, they'll have lesser vocations." I don't think religious orders are tasked to recruit as many nuns as possible. I remember a quotation from a local bishop when he was asked what's his opinion regarding priestly vocations. He said, it is better to have a few good priest than to have a hundreds of not good priests.

Religious orders are to follow God's will. I think it's inappropriate to think, "I think I have vocation with them because they have religious habits." Most and foremost, when we answer the call of our Lord, we are to be focused on following His Will, and less of our desires. John 3:30: "He must increase, I must decrease."

I would like to ask pardon if ever i offended someone. I do not mean to hurt someone out there, or to judge. This is just what I feel. This is my opinion.

Merry Christmas!

Thomas Eugene

[tinytherese]

Thank you for your post. Please don't be offended by what I say, but habited orders seem to be popular not always because ladies think that they are actually the orthodox communities, but also because they themselves want to wear the habit themselves. Sometimes that's really why ladies look them up. They like you, appreciate the beauty of the habit, but don't always necessarily judge those who don't wear it. Others are just as you have described though.

Pax Christi and Merry Christmas!

[Gemma]

[quote name='tnavarro61' date='25 December 2009 - 12:59 PM' timestamp='1261760351' post='2025908']
I'm just so annoyed with an online group that I joined, which focuses much on religious habits.

I am not pointing out persons, or what. But let me tell you my side.

First, I would love to see religious in their habits. In fact I am so amazed with those who wear the traditional ones (like Mother Angelica's order, etc..). If people would see them, they would be reminded of their sacred service!

But what I am sad about is how SOME people judge the nuns who DON'T wear their religious habits. As if they're the worst in spiritual lives. As if religious habits tells the condition of their interior journey. As if there would be no saints if there are no religious habits.

I know that religious habits helps, but I think it's right if we do not judge habitless religious. I think it's right to respect them.

I know that there are liberal nuns, and they do not have religious habits. I know a nun who advocates women ordination. But not all habitless nuns are liberal.

As far as I know the Daughters of Charity are founded with no religious habits. Now some people tries to revive their cornette which is very costly, which is very hard things to do. [b]I don't know[/b] if there are people who wants to revive the cornette just out of superfluosity.

Let's focus first on our God. Let's focus on the Divine Master. Though I want all nuns to wear their habits, but I have and want to respect how the Holy Spirit is leading them. Let's us not go into that thinking, "oh they have no habits, they'll have lesser vocations." I don't think religious orders are tasked to recruit as many nuns as possible. I remember a quotation from a local bishop when he was asked what's his opinion regarding priestly vocations. He said, it is better to have a few good priest than to have a hundreds of not good priests.

Religious orders are to follow God's will. I think it's inappropriate to think, "I think I have vocation with them because they have religious habits." Most and foremost, when we answer the call of our Lord, we are to be focused on following His Will, and less of our desires. John 3:30: "He must increase, I must decrease."

I would like to ask pardon if ever i offended someone. I do not mean to hurt someone out there, or to judge. This is just what I feel. This is my opinion.

Merry Christmas!

Thomas Eugene
[/quote]

A blessed feast of Our Lord's birth, T.E.

You have it good in the Phillippines. We don't in the U.S., hence the need for the Apostolic Visitation.

The sisters who shed the habit were influenced by neo-pagans who infiltrated the American convents. They taught that the veil was a sign of male oppression. Discerners have actually been belittled by the "updated" nuns who, when asked about the habit, questioned the discerner's motives.

One monastery asked for promotion, and when I asked them for a promise that postulants who wish to wear the veil would not be persecuted, they didn't respond.

I personally have been harmed by "updated" nuns. Those involved in the occult have attacked me spiritually. Our yahoo group for ex-nuns has helped some get over their anger at some of the practices that were introduced after Vat II. They speak of the neo-paganism that was introduced into the convents.

So please, TE, show more respect for those of us who have suffered at the hands of these non-habited sisters. We know what we're talking about, and are not being judgemental--only calling a spade a spade, and trying to save souls.

Blessings,
Gemma

[Antigonos]

As an outsider, it seems to me that spiritual formation would be more difficult [but not impossible!] without certain external, visible symbols, and the habit is one of these. It not only marks a nun out in comparison with a secular person, it marks her internally as separate, special, and dedicated to a specific purpose. It must be the same for a priest who wears the Roman collar, or a soutane, or a cassock, rather than jeans and a T-shirt.

When I was in nursing school, we wore highly starched, and quite formal uniforms, and had uniform inspection every morning, right down to the condition of our shoelaces. "Professional appearance assists professional performance", our instructors would remind us frequently. And being still teenagers, we thought the comparison of sloppy dress and disorganized, sloppy patient care rather a far stretch. But it wasn't. You [i]felt[/i] different when in uniform, and I for one have noticed that as nurses have abandoned uniform, or parts of it, starting with caps, and then colored pant suits, and now scrubs which look like pyjamas on units other than OR or L&D [where they were easily soiled], they have become more and more lackadaisical about basic nursing care which was the bedrock of our treatment of patients.

[cmaD2006]

Thomas Eugine does have a point -- sometimes there is such a focus on the habit that we forget that the more important part is how the sister is living religious life, not whether or not she is wearing a habit.

Both a sister in a habit and outside of a habit is a human being trying to live out what she is called to do -- to be a religous, and to aim towards sanctity.

Both sisters are able to be instruments of evangelization/conversion; as well as instruments of scandal/division.

Finally there are sisters in and out of habits that are walking saints, and unfortunately there are sisters in and out of habits that are not (and should not be in vows, period).

Praying for those sisters that are having a difficult time living their vows, and thanking the Lord for those who set an example to follow.

[AccountDeleted]

This topic is going to raise a lot of opinions on both sides of the fence, and might be a better Debate Table thread, but since it is here, I will respond.

I agree that there are saints both in and out of habits, but what does that have to do with it? A habit is part of the religious life by canon law, and unless there is a very good reason for NOT wearing one, I don't see why every religious community doesn't do so in some form or another. I have had several non-habited nuns tell me that their little lapel pins are their "habit". This is just not true. A habit is clothing (like a uniform that identifies nurses and police and soldiers), not jewellery. If a policeman or fireman wore only a ring or lapel pin, it would not be the same as seeing them in uniform.

If a community needs to wear something that suits the climate or culture (such as the sari that the Missionaries of charity wear), they can still be wearing a habit (Mother Teresa intended this simple sari to be her habit - and all her nuns wear it). There is much freedom of choice as to the habit, but not to wear one at all (unless for a very good reason within the ministry) or to simply substitute a lapel pin or crucifix is just not enough (I wear a crucifix, that doesn't make me a nun) - all sisters should be wearing the same identifiable clothing.

If some religious communities are upset that people want them to wear a habit, then maybe they need to look again at why they are not doing so, and perhaps change their minds? It all comes down to the reasons and motivation. Not one of the sisters I have questioned about this has given me a really good reason why their community no longer wears habits, and I have heard a LOT of reasons. Some of these reasons are very self-centered, and make me wonder why they are in religious life in the first place, and other reasons are just illogical or seem to be part of a peer pressure opinion within their own community. For those religious sisters who don't want to wear a habit just because they don't like it, maybe they need to be in lay societies instead of religious ones, where a habit is not allowed?? Wearing a habit is a great privilege and allowed only to those in religious life. To reject it dishonors their vocation (IMO).

The externals are not the main point of religious life, that is very true, but none of us can say that externals don't matter at all. If that were true, none of us would ever have to attend Mass, we could say that we are communing with God interiorly and that is good enough! No, the externals play a very vital role in any human endeavor - it is just the type of creatures we are. In fact, Catholics use external signs and symbols in a big way, from crucifixes and statues and pictures, to Rosaries and candles and yes, even habits! Who doesn't love to see pictures of Rome, with the nuns in their habits and the priests in their long soutanes and birettas? It lifts the soul just to see them. Taking away all external signs and symbols would make us a very Protestant looking church! Our rituals and traditions are one of the great strengths of our Church and a source of its beauty. They also reflect the beauty and the glory of the creator. Habits are a part of this tradition as well as a practical witness.

In my opinion, ALL religious should wear habits unless there is a very [u]concrete [/u]and [u]valid [/u]reason why this would not work in their ministry. And I would happily challenege any religious community that does not presently wear a habit, to re-examine this issue over and over again to see if their reasons for not doing so are solid and based on pleasing God and not themselves. And if they choose not to wear a habit, then they should be prepared in charity to openly explain why their community has made this decision and not be offended that they are asked. If they can't justify it to themselves, then they will feel defensive when others ask. If they are quite comfortable with their reasons, then they should have no problem helping the faithful to understand, so as not to cause confusion or scandal. I think this is one of the most important issues for women religious today, and I am thrilled that there is a study into US women's communities by the Vatican, and hope that they will also move on to those in Australia! Really good, solid, faithful, religious communities will have nothing to fear but those that need help, will be able to get it. All religious communities need our prayers, especially during this time of spiritual warfare.

[tnavarro61]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='26 December 2009 - 02:22 AM' timestamp='1261761724' post='2025919']
Thank you for your post. Please don't be offended by what I say, but habited orders seem to be popular not always because ladies think that they are actually the orthodox communities, but also because they themselves want to wear the habit themselves. Sometimes that's really why ladies look them up. They like you, appreciate the beauty of the habit, but don't always necessarily judge those who don't wear it. Others are just as you have described though.

Pax Christi and Merry Christmas!
[/quote]

i'm not offended! all of us are entitled to our own opinion. thank you for being open minded!

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='nunsense' date='25 December 2009 - 06:42 PM' timestamp='1261780953' post='2026025']
This topic is going to raise a lot of opinions on both sides of the fence, and might be a better Debate Table thread, but since it is here, I will respond.

I agree that there are saints both in and out of habits, but what does that have to do with it? A habit is part of the religious life by canon law, and unless there is a very good reason for NOT wearing one, I don't see why every religious community doesn't do so in some form or another. I have had several non-habited nuns tell me that their little lapel pins are their "habit". This is just not true. A habit is clothing (like a uniform that identifies nurses and police and soldiers), not jewellery. If a policeman or fireman wore only a ring or lapel pin, it would not be the same as seeing them in uniform.

If a community needs to wear something that suits the climate or culture (such as the sari that the Missionaries of charity wear), they can still be wearing a habit (Mother Teresa intended this simple sari to be her habit - and all her nuns wear it). There is much freedom of choice as to the habit, but not to wear one at all (unless for a very good reason within the ministry) or to simply substitute a lapel pin or crucifix is just not enough (I wear a crucifix, that doesn't make me a nun) - all sisters should be wearing the same identifiable clothing.

If some religious communities are upset that people want them to wear a habit, then maybe they need to look again at why they are not doing so, and perhaps change their minds? It all comes down to the reasons and motivation. Not one of the sisters I have questioned about this has given me a really good reason why their community no longer wears habits, and I have heard a LOT of reasons. Some of these reasons are very self-centered, and make me wonder why they are in religious life in the first place, and other reasons are just illogical or seem to be part of a peer pressure opinion within their own community. For those religious sisters who don't want to wear a habit just because they don't like it, maybe they need to be in lay societies instead of religious ones, where a habit is not allowed?? Wearing a habit is a great privilege and allowed only to those in religious life. To reject it dishonors their vocation (IMO).

The externals are not the main point of religious life, that is very true, but none of us can say that externals don't matter at all. If that were true, none of us would ever have to attend Mass, we could say that we are communing with God interiorly and that is good enough! No, the externals play a very vital role in any human endeavor - it is just the type of creatures we are. In fact, Catholics use external signs and symbols in a big way, from crucifixes and statues and pictures, to Rosaries and candles and yes, even habits! Who doesn't love to see pictures of Rome, with the nuns in their habits and the priests in their long soutanes and birettas? It lifts the soul just to see them. Taking away all external signs and symbols would make us a very Protestant looking church! Our rituals and traditions are one of the great strengths of our Church and a source of its beauty. They also reflect the beauty and the glory of the creator. Habits are a part of this tradition as well as a practical witness.

In my opinion, ALL religious should wear habits unless there is a very [u]concrete [/u]and [u]valid [/u]reason why this would not work in their ministry. And I would happily challenege any religious community that does not presently wear a habit, to re-examine this issue over and over again to see if their reasons for not doing so are solid and based on pleasing God and not themselves. And if they choose not to wear a habit, then they should be prepared in charity to openly explain why their community has made this decision and not be offended that they are asked. If they can't justify it to themselves, then they will feel defensive when others ask. If they are quite comfortable with their reasons, then they should have no problem helping the faithful to understand, so as not to cause confusion or scandal. I think this is one of the most important issues for women religious today, and I am thrilled that there is a study into US women's communities by the Vatican, and hope that they will also move on to those in Australia! Really good, solid, faithful, religious communities will have nothing to fear but those that need help, will be able to get it. All religious communities need our prayers, especially during this time of spiritual warfare.
[/quote]

[tnavarro61]

[quote name='Gemma' date='26 December 2009 - 03:51 AM' timestamp='1261767113' post='2025942']
A blessed feast of Our Lord's birth, T.E.

You have it good in the Phillippines. We don't in the U.S., hence the need for the Apostolic Visitation. [/quote]

Maybe it's quite different here in the PH. More than 80% are here are Roman Catholic.
[quote]

The sisters who shed the habit were influenced by neo-pagans who infiltrated the American convents. They taught that the veil was a sign of male oppression. Discerners have actually been belittled by the "updated" nuns who, when asked about the habit, questioned the discerner's motives.

One monastery asked for promotion, and when I asked them for a promise that postulants who wish to wear the veil would not be persecuted, they didn't respond. [/quote]

I've said it. Not all non-habited nuns are liberal, are they?

[quote]I personally have been harmed by "updated" nuns. Those involved in the occult have attacked me spiritually. Our yahoo group for ex-nuns has helped some get over their anger at some of the practices that were introduced after Vat II. They speak of the neo-paganism that was introduced into the convents. [/quote]
So with that situation, we can conclude that ALL non-habited nuns are neo pagan?

[quote]So please, TE, show more respect for those of us who have suffered at the hands of these non-habited sisters. We know what we're talking about, and are not being judgemental--only calling a spade a spade, and trying to save souls.[/quote]

I do not know how I become disrespectful. It seems to me that you're trying to say that all non-habited nuns are bad. There are couple of religious orders here in the Philippines that do not wear they're habits. Though i would love to see them in habits, they deserve respect.

[tnavarro61]

[quote name='Antigonos' date='26 December 2009 - 05:16 AM' timestamp='1261772199' post='2025981']
As an outsider, it seems to me that spiritual formation would be more difficult [but not impossible!] without certain external, visible symbols, and the habit is one of these. It not only marks a nun out in comparison with a secular person, it marks her internally as separate, special, and dedicated to a specific purpose. It must be the same for a priest who wears the Roman collar, or a soutane, or a cassock, rather than jeans and a T-shirt.

When I was in nursing school, we wore highly starched, and quite formal uniforms, and had uniform inspection every morning, right down to the condition of our shoelaces. "Professional appearance assists professional performance", our instructors would remind us frequently. And being still teenagers, we thought the comparison of sloppy dress and disorganized, sloppy patient care rather a far stretch. But it wasn't. You [i]felt[/i] different when in uniform, and I for one have noticed that as nurses have abandoned uniform, or parts of it, starting with caps, and then colored pant suits, and now scrubs which look like pyjamas on units other than OR or L&D [where they were easily soiled], they have become more and more lackadaisical about basic nursing care which was the bedrock of our treatment of patients.
[/quote]

Got to agree with that. That's why I love to see religious in their habits.I know the colored unifrom of the nurses that look like pyjamas!

But on the other side, [i]what I am trying to say[/i] is that we are not just called to wear a habit. We are called to do the will of God and we must still respect the habitless religious...

[tnavarro61]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' date='26 December 2009 - 06:57 AM' timestamp='1261778239' post='2026015']
Thomas Eugine does have a point -- sometimes there is such a focus on the habit that we forget that the more important part is how the sister is living religious life, not whether or not she is wearing a habit.

Both a sister in a habit and outside of a habit is a human being trying to live out what she is called to do -- to be a religous, and to aim towards sanctity.

Both sisters are able to be instruments of evangelization/conversion; as well as instruments of scandal/division.

Finally there are sisters in and out of habits that are walking saints, and unfortunately there are sisters in and out of habits that are not (and should not be in vows, period).

Praying for those sisters that are having a difficult time living their vows, and thanking the Lord for those who set an example to follow.
[/quote]

Thank you very much for being so openminded. Thank you!

[Indwelling Trinity]

Oh i think you are right... this should be on a debate site! I for one Do wear the traditional Camelite habit. I tried the modified veil and found it more work to keep it on than wearing the toque where everything stays in place.

I agree religious should wear habits as per the work of their communities. I do know of Some communities who never had a habit because they worked in communist regions etc.... But by and large The documents of Vatican II encouraged updating the habits as some were extremely intriquite and required hours of work a week just to starch and flute the headpieces. So I think the council wanted more simplicity and practicality.

I still wear the full Carmelite habit but with a cloth belt instead of a leather one. To me it is simple and practical and modest. Also it important to me is it signifies not only my consecration in the Carmelite tradition but it also for me embraces in symbolic form the wonderful heritage that I have been given in Carmel.

It is not up to me to judge others who choose not to wear a habit. That is for Rome to decide. I choose to follow the tradition of my order and what I interpret the guidelines of the second council as a part of my vow of obedience. For me it works on many levels. It is a protection from temptation when i have to go out, It is a sign to me of my consecration. It is a sign to others, in so far as i have had many people come up to me sharing their own personal difficulties or just tell me that for one brief moment it caused them to remember God in their hectic lifestyles, and many ask for prayer.

The idea proported by many religious that habits deter people from approaching them I have just not found in my own protracted experience to be true. If you show a pleasant demeanor to others, you will be approachable.

The habit is symbolic but not a status symbol. Those who use it for that purpose, maybe should not be wearing one. The habit like other customs religious have are meant to be a help towards holiness of life. Wearing one does not guarantee it nor does not wearing one exclude one from true holiness. Let us judge not lest we too be judged.

Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity

Edited December 26, 2009 by Indwelling Trinity

[tnavarro61]

[quote name='nunsense' date='26 December 2009 - 07:42 AM' timestamp='1261780953' post='2026025']
I agree that there are saints both in and out of habits, but what does that have to do with it? A habit is part of the religious life by canon law, and unless there is a very good reason for NOT wearing one, I don't see why every religious community doesn't do so in some form or another. I have had several non-habited nuns tell me that their little lapel pins are their "habit". This is just not true. A habit is clothing (like a uniform that identifies nurses and police and soldiers), not jewellery. If a policeman or fireman wore only a ring or lapel pin, it would not be the same as seeing them in uniform. [/quote]

Yes the religious habits are important. And yes, there might be very good reasons why some don't wear religious habits, so we must still respect their decisions. Probably this is how the Holy Spirit is working with them,and we have to respect what the Holy Spirit does.

I want point out to all that [i]what I am sad about is how people judge all habitless religious.[/i]
Maybe this article would help:

[url="http://ncronline.org/news/discerning-ministerial-religious-life-today"]http://ncronline.org/news/discerning-ministerial-religious-life-today[/url]

[jumpfrog]

Here is a cool article about clergy in clericals: http://www.kencollins.com/pray-26.htm

It is by a protestant pastor, but he makes good points that can be applied to religious as well...

The rest of his site has other great articles too.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='tnavarro61' date='26 December 2009 - 11:37 AM' timestamp='1261789630' post='2026071']
Yes the religious habits are important. And yes, there might be very good reasons why some don't wear religious habits, so we must still respect their decisions. Probably this is how the Holy Spirit is working with them,and we have to respect what the Holy Spirit does.

I want point out to all that [i]what I am sad about is how people judge all habitless religious.[/i]
Maybe this article would help:

[url="http://ncronline.org/news/discerning-ministerial-religious-life-today"]http://ncronline.org/news/discerning-ministerial-religious-life-today[/url]
[/quote]


Personally I love the religious habit and joy floods in whenever I sight a nun in habit. My spiritual director however is a non-habited nun and ex novice mistress of her Order - she strikes me as most wise and reverant, quietly reserved and yet quite astute and discerning, and also very down to earth and most loyal to the Magisterium and Rome and traditional in her views. It truly saddens me when Charity seems to break down almost completely (Love of God expressed in Love of neighbour) by passionate (even uncharitable) negative criticisms and judgements of non habited religious. It is not the habit that is central to religious life, rather it is Charity.
And it is the witness and habit we all, regardless of vocation in life, need to wear.

Matthew6 : 24 No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. 25[b] Therefore I say to you, be not solicitous for your life, what you shall eat, nor for your body, what you shall put on[/b]. Is not the life more than the meat: and the body more than the raiment?
[quote]
“Vita Consecrata” (Post Synodal Apostolic Exhortation – “The Consecrated Life” 1996 – Pope John Paul II)
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_25031996_vita-consecrata_en.html
"where valid reasons of their apostolate call for it, Religious, in conformity with the norms of their Institute, may also dress in a simple and modest manner, with [b]an appropriate symbol[/b], in such a way that their consecration is recognizable.Institutes which from their origin or by provision of their Constitutions do not have a specific habit should ensure that the dress of their members corresponds in dignity and simplicity to the nature of their vocation."[/quote]

[quote]Quoting Indwelling Trinity: If you show a pleasant demeanor to others, you will be approachable. [/quote]
Spot on!...........either in habit or out of it.



Barb

Happy Christmas all!

Edited December 26, 2009 by BarbaraTherese