Socrates Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 [quote name='txdinghysailor' date='22 December 2009 - 11:36 AM' timestamp='1261499762' post='2024413'] Well last night we got into an argument regarding the numbers that are thrown around in our circle of friends regarding Aztec human sacrifices, the number of Aztecs converted in the 1400-1500s and stuff like that. I said that you can't assume that the numbers are perfectly accurate, because the people writing the numbers probably had something to gain by exaggerating things in their favor. And then my mom said that people were holier back then so they wouldn't. And I just find that hard to believe. So yeah, that's why I'm asking. [/quote] While it's hard to get exact numbers, the evidence is that the numbers of human sacrifice were extremely high, and this horrified even the hardened Spanish conquistadors. The Aztecs practiced human sacrifice on a scale larger than any other society in known history, though the worshipers of Baal in ancient North Africa may have came close. It's an incredible story. The vastly-outnumbered conquistadors would not have acheived victory without the aid of many of the native tribes which joined them in fighting the Aztecs who oppressed them and used them for sacrificial victims. A good (and fun) Catholic read on the topic is [url="http://www.amazon.com/Our-Lady-Guadalupe-Conquest-Darkness/dp/0931888123/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261509948&sr=1-1"][i]Our Lady of Guadalupe and the Conquest of Darkness[/i], by Warren Carroll[/url]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 [quote name='Socrates' date='22 December 2009 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1261508786' post='2024501'] Only God can provide a certain answer to this question, since God alone has access to the inner state of everyone's soul. But based on historical evidence, I'd guess yes. Human nature is the same, but human society and culture can be more or less Christian or conducive to holiness and virtue, and the state of Christian society has fluctuated through history. In the era of medieval Christendom, society openly proclaimed Christ as Lord, and encouraged devotion to the Catholic Faith. Public life centered around the Christian religion, as evidenced by the building of the magnificent cathedrals which were at the heart of society. Art and literature was often centered around Christian themes. Of course, there was plenty of sin and evil then too, and there never was a perfect golden age. I don't think 1509 was really a high point for the Church, though. Many Catholic historians consider the 13th century "the greatest of centuries," though it was far from perfect, and was followed by two centuries of religious decline and increased corruption in the Church, culminating in the Protestant Revolt of 1517. However, I think it very safe to say that, despite problems and abuses, people and society as a whole took the Faith much more seriously then than now. The contemporary era is arguably unique in society's promotion of immorality and vice as virtue, and in its condemnation of virtue, even among so-called "Christians." People committed sins in all past eras, yet these were not promoted as "rights" and being good in themselves, and people as a whole sought to avoid these vices. Today, society openly promotes every kind of perversion, and scorns and ridicules "traditional morality." Past ages may have been prone to hypocrisy, but hypocrisy is the tribute vice pays to virtue. Today, virtue is paid no tribute, much less practiced, and vice is extolled as virtuous. Anyone who thinks modern society is the best there's ever been is deluding himself. [/quote] +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='22 December 2009 - 02:09 PM' timestamp='1261508946' post='2024502'] Is this an original thought? It's spectacular. [/quote] Actually, no. (Though I'd love to take credit.) Don't remember where I read it; I think it's an old saying, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 [quote name='Socrates' date='22 December 2009 - 03:06 PM' timestamp='1261508786' post='2024501']However, I think it very safe to say that, despite problems and abuses, people and society as a whole took the Faith much more seriously then than now. The contemporary era is arguably unique in society's promotion of immorality and vice as virtue, and in its condemnation of virtue, even among so-called "Christians." People committed sins in all past eras, yet these were not promoted as "rights" and being good in themselves, and people as a whole sought to avoid these vices. Today, society openly promotes every kind of perversion, and scorns and ridicules "traditional morality." Past ages may have been prone to hypocrisy, but hypocrisy is the tribute vice pays to virtue. Today, virtue is paid no tribute, much less practiced, and vice is extolled as virtuous. Anyone who thinks modern society is the best there's ever been is deluding himself. [/quote] I think that's an accurate and thoughtful analysis. However, the Catholic Church destroyed itself and it's hold on power with self corruption. It's not the people who became less holy and rejected the Church, it's the Church leaders and became less holy and were actually destructive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 [quote name='Anomaly' date='22 December 2009 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1261511587' post='2024555'] I think that's an accurate and thoughtful analysis. However, the Catholic Church destroyed itself and it's hold on power with self corruption. It's not the people who became less holy and rejected the Church, it's the Church leaders and became less holy and were actually destructive. [/quote]I must have missed the destruction part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 [quote name='Anomaly' date='22 December 2009 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1261511587' post='2024555'] I think that's an accurate and thoughtful analysis. However, the Catholic Church destroyed itself and it's hold on power with self corruption. It's not the people who became less holy and rejected the Church, it's the Church leaders and became less holy and were actually destructive. [/quote] Usually sin and lack of holiness among the people and sin and lack of holiness in Church leadership go hand-in-hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 [quote name='Socrates' date='22 December 2009 - 01:21 PM' timestamp='1261513304' post='2024575'] Usually sin and lack of holiness among the people and sin and lack of holiness in Church leadership go hand-in-hand. [/quote] +1 . . . if I had any points to give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Winchester' date='22 December 2009 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1261509366' post='2024506'] Overly simplistic history. Too many commas. [/quote] So, having nothing of substance to contribute yourself, just attack and run away. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img] Jim Edited December 22, 2009 by JimR-OCDS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 (edited) [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='22 December 2009 - 03:39 PM' timestamp='1261514362' post='2024592'] So, having nothing of substance to contribute yourself, just attack and run away. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img] Jim [/quote] You apparently have an aversion to substance and I haven't run anywhere. I'm not going to hang out on this thread all day waiting for your next gross generalisation and repetition of Protestant Revolt revisionist history. Edited December 22, 2009 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I don't know about 1500s Europe, but I would tentatively suggest that the Pre-Nicene era was a time of great holiness among Christians. At least the first three centuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='22 December 2009 - 12:30 PM' timestamp='1261513829' post='2024584'] +1 . . . if I had any points to give. [/quote] Done I thought it was wise as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR-OCDS Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' date='22 December 2009 - 04:49 PM' timestamp='1261514997' post='2024603'] You apparently have an aversion to substance and I haven't run anywhere. I'm not going to hang out on this thread all day waiting for your next gross generalisation and repetition of Protestant Revolt revisionist history. [/quote] Once again, nothing but obnoxious rant and nothing of substance. Thanks for proving my point. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 (edited) [quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='23 December 2009 - 09:03 AM' timestamp='1261576992' post='2024965'] Once again, nothing but obnoxious rant and nothing of substance. [s]Thanks for proving my point[/s]. Jim [/quote] A rant would have more force. That was a gentle observation. I tried providing you with substance, once (possibly twice, I can't keep track). You rejected it. You also abuse commas. Also: Fixed it. I'm kind of disappointed you didn't acknowledgge the protestant revolt thingie. That was a reference to the (a?) time I provided you with substance. You rejected it. I'm wounded, now. I'll probably need therapy. Edited December 23, 2009 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddington Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' date='23 December 2009 - 10:49 AM' timestamp='1261579792' post='2024984'] I'll probably need therapy. [/quote] Did you see The Prince of Tides? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 [quote name='Paddington' date='23 December 2009 - 09:58 AM' timestamp='1261580299' post='2024993'] Did you see The Prince of Tides? [/quote] Good movie. Better book. Got verklempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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