Comrade Chavez At Climate Summit

[Socrates]

Here's Comrade Chavez, opening for Comrade Obama.
[quote]Then President Chavez brought the house down.

When he said the process in Copenhagen was “not democratic, it is not inclusive, but isn’t that the reality of our world, the world is really and imperial dictatorship…down with imperial dictatorships” he got a rousing round of applause.

When he said there was a “silent and terrible ghost in the room” and that ghost was called capitalism, the applause was deafening.

But then he wound up to his grand conclusion – 20 minutes after his 5 minute speaking time was supposed to have ended and after quoting everyone from Karl Marx to Jesus Christ - [b]“our revolution seeks to help all people…socialism, the other ghost that is probably wandering around this room, that’s the way to save the planet, capitalism is the road to hell....let’s fight against capitalism and make it obey us.” He won a standing ovation.[/b][/quote]

From [url="http://www.theaustralian.com.au/politics/penny-wong-jeered-hugo-chavez-cheered/story-e6frgczf-1225811179614"][i]The Australian[/i][/url]

The real agenda of this farcical "Climate Summit" should be obvious.

[Winchester]

They're both evil, but one is certainly less coercive than the other. I'd support capitalism before socialism any day.

[King's Rook's Pawn]

I can hardly blame them given the imperialist, mercantilist, globalist regimes that have been marching under the banner of "capitalism" at least since the Second World War. It can best be described as democratic fascism, and it's wreaked havoc on third world populations for many decades. Since socialism is continually presented as the only viable alternative to this economic fascism calling itself "capitalism," people in these and other countries have a tendency to jump to socialism as their savior. Yet socialism, as it's usually praticed, is little different; the state just runs more of the economy directly instead of pawning it off on favored private companies. The only true alternative is a free market rooted in private property and voluntary exchange.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Winchester' date='20 December 2009 - 08:05 AM' timestamp='1261256757' post='2023169']
They're both evil, but one is certainly less coercive than the other. I'd support capitalism before socialism any day.
[/quote]
Are you wealthy ?
[img]http://www.tech-faq.com/emoticons/animated-emoticons/smiley_46.gif[/img]

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='19 December 2009 - 05:58 PM' timestamp='1261263493' post='2023208']
I can hardly blame them given the imperialist, mercantilist, globalist regimes that have been marching under the banner of "capitalism" at least since the Second World War.
[/quote]

I'm going to go with the era of Teddy "Monopolies are bad unless it's a State monopoly" Roosevelt.

~Sternhauser

[Socrates]

[quote name='Winchester' date='19 December 2009 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1261256757' post='2023169']
They're both evil, but one is certainly less coercive than the other.
[/quote]
If you mean by "capitalism" a free market economy, then no, it's not intrinsically evil.
If you are referring to currently-practiced statist corporate-welfarism, then . . . yeah. But that's more like socialism dressed up as "capitalism."

The "Climate Summit" is simply an attempt to enforce socialism at the international level and punish successful free economies. May the entire enterprise fail miserably.

Edited December 20, 2009 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='19 December 2009 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1261284246' post='2023354']
Are you wealthy ?
[img]http://www.tech-faq.com/emoticons/animated-emoticons/smiley_46.gif[/img]
[/quote]
Because only the wealthy are not enamored of socialism, of course.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='19 December 2009 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1261284246' post='2023354']
Are you wealthy ?
[img]http://www.tech-faq.com/emoticons/animated-emoticons/smiley_46.gif[/img]
[/quote]
Essentially. I have electricity, televisions, money left in the bank, I am buying a house, I can eat more than enough food, I own vehicles... most of us are wealthy by any reasonable standard. Many of us spend our wealth until we have financial difficulties. I am not immune to this phenomenon.

Why do you ask?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Socrates' date='20 December 2009 - 01:49 PM' timestamp='1261334957' post='2023488']
If you mean by "capitalism" a free market economy, then no, it's not intrinsically evil.
If you are referring to currently-practiced statist corporate-welfarism, then . . . yeah. But that's more like socialism dressed up as "capitalism."
[/quote]
I don't agree with that definition, but I'm aware it's the common one. The philosophy of capitalism does not account for just wage agreements and the actual worth of human labor. Supply and demand is not enough to set just prices.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Winchester' date='20 December 2009 - 01:58 PM' timestamp='1261335536' post='2023494']
I don't agree with that definition, but I'm aware it's the common one. The philosophy of capitalism does not account for just wage agreements and the actual worth of human labor. Supply and demand is not enough to set just prices.
[/quote]
Governments dictating "just wages" and "just prices" has never increased prosperity.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Socrates' date='20 December 2009 - 02:24 PM' timestamp='1261337094' post='2023511']
Governments dictating "just wages" and "just prices" has never increased prosperity.
[/quote]
That's generally a reaction to abuse. It is in this country. Perhaps not the right one, but it's there. I agree there are undesirable consequences, but organized labor seemingly isn't possible for everyone, and that's the worker's only viable defense if the employer decides to abuse his workers.

Remember that I'm a feudal monarchist.

Edited December 20, 2009 by Winchester

[Socrates]

[quote name='Winchester' date='20 December 2009 - 02:30 PM' timestamp='1261337412' post='2023513']
That's generally a reaction to abuse. It is in this country. Perhaps not the right one, but it's there. I agree there are undesirable consequences, but organized labor seemingly isn't possible for everyone, and that's the worker's only viable defense if the employer decides to abuse his workers.[/quote]
Even in the extremely unlikely case that a government were completely just and well-meaning, setting prices and wages cannot possibly work in the long run. Prices are relative, and there's simply too many factors going into play. You wind up with surpluses or shortages if set prices don't meet market supply and demand. Same with the price of labor. If the minimum wage is artificially raised too high, you just get more unemployment. Most serious economists recognize this fact.

[quote]
Remember that I'm a feudal monarchist.[/quote]
I personally favor a tribal caveman hunter-gatherer economy myself.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Socrates' date='20 December 2009 - 02:38 PM' timestamp='1261337882' post='2023514']
Even in the extremely unlikely case that a government were completely just and well-meaning, setting prices and wages cannot possibly work in the long run. Prices are relative, and there's simply too many factors going into play. You wind up with surpluses or shortages if set prices don't meet market supply and demand. Same with the price of labor. If the minimum wage is artificially raised too high, you just get more unemployment. Most serious economists recognize this fact.[/quote]
I don't disagree.

[quote]
I personally favor a tribal caveman hunter-gatherer economy myself.
[/quote]
I can tell by your knuckles.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Winchester' date='21 December 2009 - 05:53 AM' timestamp='1261335235' post='2023491']
Essentially. I have electricity, televisions, money left in the bank, I am buying a house, I can eat more than enough food, I own vehicles... most of us are wealthy by any reasonable standard. Many of us spend our wealth until we have financial difficulties. I am not immune to this phenomenon.

Why do you ask?
[/quote]
Most poor people in capitalistic countries are not happy with the fact that a tiny percentage of the population have most of the wealth. I was being cynical I guess because I am very happy having been born in Oz. God has been generous to me and given much more than I really need or deserve.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='20 December 2009 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1261339667' post='2023524']
Most poor people in capitalistic countries are not happy with the fact that a tiny percentage of the population have most of the wealth. [/quote]
The answer is not theft.