Sternhauser Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 December 2009 - 10:31 PM' timestamp='1261189880' post='2022902'] "Intellectual property." Illogical. It won't "ruin the book publishing industry," any more than Universal putting videos and music of their contracted musicians is "ruining the music industry." Musicians make their money through concerts. A record contract isn't that necessary any more, due to the dynamic nature of the market, thanks to the internet. Stars are found by exhibiting their work on YouTube, and then they make money by going on tour. You can't own an idea, or a form. You can't have physical possession of an idea. All the people in the world can have the same idea at the same time, without anyone being worse off for it. The fashion industry is quite profitable, and there are no patents onstyles. I know of a man from the Midwest who was paid to walk aroundFifth Avenue and sketch perfect images of the fashions displayed in theshop windows, and they'd be manufacturing in a matter of days. A statutory monopoly on production encourages a stagnant economy. Even St. Thomas' definition of "theft" does not jive with the notion of "copyright." If you claim to have come up with an idea and try to sell it as such, that is fraud. But publishing a book that someone else wrote, if you credit the author, is not "theft." ~KnightofChrist [/quote] It is fraud to claim those words as your own. It is not wrong to republish them as long as you do not use fraud to conceal the identity of the author. If you didn't commit fraud, I'd probably have said, "Yeah, you're catching on." ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 You can't own an idea, or a form. You can't have physical possession of an idea. All the people in the world can have the same idea at the same time, without anyone being worse off for it. -KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='18 December 2009 - 10:32 PM' timestamp='1261189959' post='2022903'] You're right, I haven't. But if I had, and chose to sell my rights to my own work to someone else, well that's my right...hence the term. If artists were not paid for their work, there would certainly be a lot less art - not out of greed, but out of necessity to work a, dare I say, real job. [/quote] Brand your ideas as yours, so they won't get rustled. ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='18 December 2009 - 09:38 PM' timestamp='1261190327' post='2022907'] Brand your ideas as yours, so they won't get rustled. ~Sternhauser [/quote] "Intellectual property." Illogical. -KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 December 2009 - 10:37 PM' timestamp='1261190253' post='2022906'] You can't own an idea, or a form. You can't have physical possession of an idea. All the people in the world can have the same idea at the same time, without anyone being worse off for it. -KnightofChrist [/quote] Again, Knight, it's fraud. You're not depriving me of what I wrote. I wrote it first. You cannot change that fact simply by putting your name after it, indicating that you are the author. If you put your name after the statement with the intend to make other people believe you wrote it, it is a lie, and a fraudulent claim. We saw what happened to Michael Bellesiles after his fraudulent book, "Arming America." ~Sternhauser Edited December 19, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 December 2009 - 10:35 PM' timestamp='1261190142' post='2022904'] Thieves in of generation try to justify their sin of stealing with moral relativism. [/quote] Have you ever read a library book, Knight of Christ? Ever bought a book at a used book store? What were you paying for? Did the author receive any compensation from your purchase? Not a dime, directly. Are you therefore a thief? ~Sternhauser Edited December 19, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zunshynn Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 I listened to a very interesting talk by Jeffrey Tucker (the guy who writes on Sacred Music for the New Liturgical Movement... apparently his first expertise is actually in economics) from mises.org the other day on the subject of intellectual property. I was actually quite surprised about his position, considering, and I never would have taken that side in the past, but he definitely made sense. I'd highly recommend giving it a listen. [url="http://mises.org/media/4255"]The Evils of Intellectual Property[/url] I'm not quite sure how I feel about it now, but especially the practical costs of trying to protect it, and the relatively greater strength without is definitely something to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Sternhauser' date='18 December 2009 - 09:41 PM' timestamp='1261190505' post='2022909'] Again, Knight, it's fraud. You're not depriving me of what I wrote. I wrote it first. You cannot change that fact simply by putting your name after it, indicating that you are the author. If you put your name after the statement with the intend to make other people believe you wrote it, it is a lie, and a fraudulent claim. We saw what happened to Michael Bellisles after his fraudulent book, "Disarming America." ~Sternhauser [/quote] It is not fraud if intellectual property does not exist. The only way it could be fraud is if you owned those words somehow but you have stated intellectual property is illogical and does not exist. It is depriving you of what you wrote, because you are not the author any more I am, and who ever else wants to be, authorship is part and parcel of Intellectual property. You can't have it both ways. If you can't own an idea, you can not claim authorship of an idea because that is claiming ownership of Intellectual property. Edited December 19, 2009 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='18 December 2009 - 09:43 PM' timestamp='1261190604' post='2022913'] Have you ever read a library book, Knight of Christ? Ever bought a book at a used book store? What were you paying for? Did the author receive any compensation from your purchase? Not a dime, directly. Are you therefore a thief? ~Sternhauser [/quote] Library books are bought or donated sometime before they become library books so your logic is illogical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 December 2009 - 10:49 PM' timestamp='1261190964' post='2022917'] It is not fraud if intellectual property does not exist. The only way it could be fraud is if you owned those words somehow but you have stated intellectual property, is illogical and does not exist. It is depriving you of what you wrote, because you are not the author any more I am, and who ever else wants to be, authorship is part and parcel of Intellectual property. You can't have it both ways. If you can't own an idea, you can not claim authorship of an idea because that is claiming ownership of Intellectual property. [/quote] Knight of Christ, You are claiming to be the first person to have illustrated those particular ideas that particular format if you put your name after them. It would be a lie to claim that. I don't own the ideas. It would be a lie for you to paint a copy of the Mona Lisa and say that you were the first to paint it in the same way. I was the first person to express those ideas in that format. It would be fraud to claim that you did. ~Sternhauser Edited December 19, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 December 2009 - 10:52 PM' timestamp='1261191145' post='2022920'] Library books are bought or donated sometime before they become library books so your logic is illogical. [/quote] They're bought and then donated at one point. How does that contradict my logic? If you read it at the library instead of buying the book, you're depriving the author of the money he would have had if you had bought the book from him! It would have the same exact result as if I had bought the book, then printed copies of it and sold it to people. ~Sternhauser Edited December 19, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 (edited) [quote name='zunshynn' date='18 December 2009 - 10:48 PM' timestamp='1261190923' post='2022916'] I listened to a very interesting talk by Jeffrey Tucker (the guy who writes on Sacred Music for the New Liturgical Movement... apparently his first expertise is actually in economics) from mises.org the other day on the subject of intellectual property. I was actually quite surprised about his position, considering, and I never would have taken that side in the past, but he definitely made sense. I'd highly recommend giving it a listen. [url="http://mises.org/media/4255"]The Evils of Intellectual Property[/url] I'm not quite sure how I feel about it now, but especially the practical costs of trying to protect it, and the relatively greater strength without is definitely something to think about. [/quote] Be careful, Zunshynn, Jeffrey Tucker is an avowed anarchist. You might develop a taste for raw kitten flesh and start wearing black hoodies if you listen to him too much. ~Sternhauser Edited December 19, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='18 December 2009 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1261191164' post='2022921'] Knight of Christ, You are claiming to be the first person to have illustrated those particular ideas that particular format if you put your name after them. It would be a lie to claim that. I don't own them. But I was the first person to express those ideas in that format. It would be fraud to claim that you did. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Actually no, I am proving a point. The point that if intellectual property does not exist, authorship does not exist. If you can steal someone's book, or intellectual property because intellectual property does not exist then you can also claim authorship since intellectual property does not exist. Authorship claims that one owns those particular words those particular ideas. Without the existence of some kind of intellectual property you have no rightful claim of authorship. Thus without ownership your claim of fraud is baseless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 December 2009 - 11:07 PM' timestamp='1261192036' post='2022930'] Actually no, I am proving a point. The point that if intellectual property does not exist, authorship does not exist. If you can steal someone's book, or intellectual property because intellectual property does not exist then you can also claim authorship since intellectual property does not exist. Authorship claims that one owns those particular words those particular ideas. Without the existence of some kind of intellectual property you have no rightful claim of authorship. Thus without ownership your claim of fraud is baseless. [/quote] If I say that I was standing on a particular piece of turf before any man ever did, and have proof of it, does it therefore logically follow that I [i]own[/i] that piece of land? Of course not! It would be a fallacy. It only means that I claim to have stood there first. If you come along, and say that you stood on that ground first, it would be a lie. ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zunshynn Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 December 2009 - 08:07 PM' timestamp='1261192036' post='2022930'] Actually no, I am proving a point. The point that if intellectual property does not exist, authorship does not exist. If you can steal someone's book, or intellectual property because intellectual property does not exist then you can also claim authorship since intellectual property does not exist. Authorship claims that one owns those particular words those particular ideas. Without the existence of some kind of intellectual property you have no rightful claim of authorship. Thus without ownership your claim of fraud is baseless. [/quote] I disagree, authorship is not the same as ownership. The "rights" to a book are usually actually owned by the publisher, not the author. But the author is still the author. Edited December 19, 2009 by zunshynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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