First Century Burial Cloth Found

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='20 December 2009 - 01:57 AM' timestamp='1261295859' post='2023391']
How do you know that?
[/quote]
How do you know that I'm not?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='20 December 2009 - 01:02 AM' timestamp='1261288969' post='2023377']
"Proving" God requires faith and then the "logic" follows.
[/quote]

Not always. Often faith follows logic.

Edited December 20, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='20 December 2009 - 12:13 PM' timestamp='1261332822' post='2023480']
Not always. Often faith follows logic.
[/quote]
Kid, you need to learn to put more into your responses than statements. If you want to debate a point, back it up.

[Winchester]

Do you have a headache or something?

[Apotheoun]

The Shroud of Turin - as an icon of Christ - contains divine energy, which is why it is worthy of veneration.

[mortify]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='20 December 2009 - 01:02 AM' timestamp='1261288969' post='2023377']
If it were that easy, there would be no atheists. I'm not illogical or unreasonable.
[/quote]

The irony here is that it doesn't logically follow that there would be no atheists just because belief in God is reasonable. People disbelieve for a host of reasons, and in my personal experience most of these "reasons" are not intellectual, i.e. it's not because a person found the proofs for God's existence unreasonable. Most often it's some other (often hidden) reason, such as not being able to give up on some vice or the idea of hell and responsibility for actions being to hard to bear.

Some people simply do not will to believe.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='mortify' date='20 December 2009 - 01:22 PM' timestamp='1261336969' post='2023510']
The irony here is that it doesn't logically follow that there would be no atheists just because belief in God is reasonable. People disbelieve for a host of reasons, and in my personal experience most of these "reasons" are not intellectual, i.e. it's not because a person found the proofs for God's existence unreasonable. Most often it's some other (often hidden) reason, such as not being able to give up on some vice or the idea of hell and responsibility for actions being to hard to bear.

Some people simply do not will to believe.
[/quote]
Well fine. Let me rephrase. If it were that easy, I wouldn't be an atheist.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='mortify' date='21 December 2009 - 06:22 AM' timestamp='1261336969' post='2023510']
, and in my personal experience most of these "reasons" are not intellectual,
[/quote]
Most people do not think intellectually!
I still maintain that there has to be free choice. God cannot be proven until a person chooses to believe then they [i]may[/i] have experiences of God proving that he really does exist. Set aside doctrine, my personal experiences of the spirit alone leave no doubt of Gods existence. I can use these stories to encourage belief and /or strengthen the faith of others but I cannot prove it to them. They can always dismiss me as being schizophrenic.
[img]http://www.tech-faq.com/emoticons/free-animated-emoticons/smiley_85.gif[/img]

Edited December 20, 2009 by Mark of the Cross

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='20 December 2009 - 02:51 PM' timestamp='1261338710' post='2023521']
Set aside doctrine
[/quote]

No, I'm not going to set aside Catholic doctrine.

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='20 December 2009 - 02:12 PM' timestamp='1261332720' post='2023479']
How do you know that I'm not?
[/quote]

I never claimed you weren't. I just thought it was a bold statement. Everyone [i]thinks[/i] they're most likely right about any viewpoint they hold. Otherwise they wouldn't hold that viewpoint.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='20 December 2009 - 03:56 PM' timestamp='1261346161' post='2023609']
I never claimed you weren't. I just thought it was a bold statement. Everyone [i]thinks[/i] they're most likely right about any viewpoint they hold. Otherwise they wouldn't hold that viewpoint.
[/quote]
Which is true of everyone, yes.

I was just pointing out that I don't hold beliefs and resist changing them just because I think I'm right. I will follow where logic and reason dictate.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='21 December 2009 - 07:53 AM' timestamp='1261342412' post='2023537']
No, I'm not going to set aside Catholic doctrine.
[/quote]
I wasn't referring to that in any disrespect. The Jesus story alone is reason enough for me to believe. Then add 2000 years of Catholic doctrine and history. Then add my own personal experiences of the spirit throughout my faith journey. With all this evidence...blessed are those that have not seen but still believe and it would be woe to me if I did not believe because I can see God. err..figuratively.

Edited December 20, 2009 by Mark of the Cross