Allah Akbar! And Rome Agrees? Why?

[Bruce S]

[quote]The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "[b]The plan of salvation also includes [/b]those who acknowledge the Creator,[b] in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; [color=red]these profess to hold the faith of Abraham[/color], and together with us they adore [color=red]the one, merciful God[/color], mankind's judge on the last day." (CCC, par. 841) [/b][/quote]

Gimmie a break here, Muslims are SAVED yet Protestants are Anathema and doomed? What gives here?

Sheesh, I thought I was closer to God and salvation than Yassir Arafat, but apparently he is the same as me.

I'm going to give up morning Mass now and go to the Mosque...

Muslims DO NOT worship the "same God" as we do, and they totally deny the divinity of Jesus and his resurrection, to them Jesus is just one of many prophets.

Anyone want to help me on this concept? Christians are doomed if they don't belong to the Catholic Church yet Muslims get a free pass?

Edited April 8, 2004 by Bruce S

[Bruce S]

[quote]Interesting Quotes from the Hadith on Jesus

Muhammad said Jesus was of red complexion.
The Prophet said, "I saw Moses, Jesus and Abraham (on the night of my Ascension to the heavens). Jesus was of red complexion, curly hair and a broad chest. Moses was of brown complexion, straight hair and tall stature as if he was from the people of Az-Zutt."  Volume 4, Book 55, Number 648, Narrated Ibn Umar.
Muhammad said Jesus said he can't intercede for people.
The Prophet said, "Allah will gather the believers on the Day of Resurrection in the same way (as they are gathered in this life), and they will say, 'Let us ask someone to intercede for us with our Lord that He may relieve us from this place of ours.' ...They will go to Abraham who will reply, 'I am not fit for this undertaking,' and mention to them the mistakes he made, and add, 'But you'd better go to Moses, a slave whom Allah gave the Torah and to whom He spoke directly' They will go to Moses who will reply, 'I am not fit for this undertaking,' and mention to them the mistakes he made, and add, 'You'd better go to Jesus, Allah's slave and His Apostle and His Word (Be: And it was) and a soul created by Him.' They will go to Jesus who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking, but you'd better go to Muhammad whose sins of the past and the future had been forgiven (by Allah).' So they will come to me and I will ask the permission of my Lord, and I will be permitted (to present myself) before Him."  Volume 9, Book 93, Number 507. Narrated Anas. Also, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 236.
This is contrary to the Bible which states that Jesus is our mediator (1 Tim. 2:5) and always lives to intercede for us:  Heb. 7:25, says, "Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
Muhammad implies that the Christian doctrine of Jesus as the son of God means God had a wife, demonstrating his lack of understanding of the issue.
On the Day of Resurrection, a call-maker will announce, "Let every nation follow that which they used to worship." Then none of those who used to worship anything other than Allah like idols and other deities but will fall in Hell (Fire), till there will remain none but those who used to worship Allah, both those who were obedient (i.e. good) and those who were disobedient (i.e. bad) and the remaining party of the people of the Scripture. . . Afterwards the Christians will be called upon and it will be said to them, 'Who do you use to worship?' They will say, 'We used to worship Jesus, the son of Allah.' It will be said to them, 'You are liars, for Allah has never taken anyone as a wife or a son,' . . .  Allah will say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say twice or thrice, 'We do not worship any besides Allah.' "  Volume 6, Book 60, Number 105. Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri,
Christian theology has never taught that Jesus was literally the offspring of God the Father.  Neither has Christianity ever taught that God has a wife.  (The cult of Mormonism has stated such erring doctrines, but it is not considered Christian.)  The term Son of God signified Jesus' special and unique relationship with the Father as the Father's representative (Heb. 1:1-3).
Muhammad said that Jesus worshiped Allah.
Regarding the explanation of the Verse: 'Those whom they call upon (worship) (like Jesus the Son of Mary, angels etc.) desire (for themselves) means of access to their Lord (Allah) as to which of them should be the nearer and they hope for His Mercy and fear His torment.' (17.57) They themselves (e.g. Angels, saints, Apostles, Jesus, etc.,) worshipped Allah, Those Jinns who were worshipped by some Arabs became Muslims (embraced Islam), but those human beings stuck to their (old) religion. Al-Amash said extra: 'Say, (O Muhammad): Call unto those besides Him whom you assume (to be gods).' (17.56)  Volume 6, Book 60, Number 238. Narrated Abdullah.
Such a statement is only a conjecture.  Jesus worshiped YHWH (Yahweh).  See John 17.
Ibn 'Umar says that to say "Jesus is Lord," is a great sin.
Whenever Ibn 'Umar was asked about marrying a Christian lady or a Jewess, he would say: "Allah has made it unlawful for the believers to marry ladies who ascribe partners in worship to Allah, and I do not know of a greater thing, as regards to ascribing partners in worship, etc. to Allah, than that a lady should say that Jesus is her Lord although he is just one of Allah's slaves." Volume 7, Book 63, Number 209.  Narrated Nafi'.
It is not a great sin and it is taught in the Bible that such a confession is necessary a sign of salvation (Rom. 10:9-10).
Muhammad said Jesus spoke while in the cradle
The Prophet said, "None spoke in cradle but three: (The first was) Jesus, (the second was), there a man from Bani Israel called Juraij.  Volume 4, Book 55, Number 645,  Narrated Abu Huraira.
    The preceding Hadith are transmitted by Sahih Bukhari and are quoted from and online source found at [url="http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/"]http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h...sunnah/bukhari/[/url]. 
[/quote]

[Bruce S]

[url="http://www.answering-islam.org/Intro/islamic_jesus.html"]http://www.answering-islam.org/Intro/islamic_jesus.html[/url]

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 8 2004, 05:26 AM'] Gimmie a break here, Muslims are SAVED yet Protestants are Anathema and doomed? What gives here? [/quote]
That's kindof funny, I didn't realize that you were doomed. I know that you don't have tools (aka sacraments) that are quite as good at getting you to heaven, but i didn't know that you were doomed because of that.

Bruce, you've really gotta stop using arguments that you know aren't true. Protestants are hardly damned by their Protestantism. If they are damned (And the Church doesn't judge any specific cases) they would be damned for rejection of God's love, not their Protestantism.

There *are* gonna be some non-Christians in heaven. For instance, I strongly suspect that Ghandi is up there. We can't judge and say that *anyone* will not make it to heaven. For one thing, it could cause us to become prideful, for another, I would hate to judge against someone only to find that I'm twice as bad.

Oh, and to address another part of your post, Muslims *ARE NOT* 'SAVED.' They have the potential to be saved. Just like every other soul. They have a slightly better shot at it, though, because they believe in the One True God. The more truth a person has, the more likely it is that they will be drawn to God.

Peace

[Bruce S]

[quote]Bruce, you've really gotta stop using arguments that you know aren't true. [b]Protestants are hardly damned by their Protestantism.[/b] If they are damned (And the Church doesn't judge any specific cases) they would be damned for rejection of God's love, not their Protestantism.
[/quote]

Maybe I'm misreading this one, and Vatican II AFFIRMED totally everything issued bby Trent, right or not?

[quote]If any one saith that the [Roman Catholic] sacraments of the New Law are not[b] necessary unto salvation[/b]...and that without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain from God, through faith alone, the grace of justification...[b]let him be anathema [/b](The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Found in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1919), Canon IV, p. 119).[/quote]

[quote]But he who is separated from God is united to the devil, which explains why St. Paul, instead of anathematizing, sometimes delivers a person over to Satan (I Tim., i, 20; I Cor., v, 5). Anathema signifies also to be overwhelmed with maledictions, as in I Cor., xvi, 22: "If any man love not our Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema." [b]At an early date the Church adopted the word anathema to signify the exclusion of a sinner from the society of the faithful; but the anathema was pronounced chiefly against heretics. [/b]All the councils, from the Council of Nicæa to that of the Vatican, have worded their dogmatic canons: "If any one says . . . let him be anathema". Nevertheless, although during the first centuries the anathema did not seem to differ from the sentence of excommunication
Source: New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia[/quote]

So, stringing this all together, you NEED the Roman Catholic sacraments to ensure salvation, at least those who KNOW about them, and have potential access to them must use them, and believe totally that the Catholic Church is the effective agent ...

And the Muslims are cool, put Protestants are not? Grin...

[popestpiusx]

Actually Bruce, you are far from the truth on this one.

[Aloysius]

Muslims recognize that the God of Abraham is the True God and Creator of the Universe, but they have imposed other things upon their image of Him that are not of Him. But God still recognizes those who recognize Him, even if they do not understand Him or His ways. Thus, Muslims who try to do God's will through the dictates of their conscience and the only teachings that are available to them about God's will, they too may be saved. MAY be saved. I guess protestants always tend to look over a "MAY" because even in John 3:16 it says MAY not perish, but MAY have eternal life, that would conflict with OSAS. but as Catholics the MAY is important. all the Church professes here is the possibility of their salvation. we still have the sacred duty to evangelize them and clear out all the things they have imposed upon their image of the Creator.

[Winchester]

So what you're saying is, you're jealous?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 8 2004, 04:26 AM'] Gimmie a break here, Muslims are SAVED yet Protestants are Anathema and doomed? What gives here? [/quote]
It's tiring that you keep misrepresenting Church teaching. Very tiring.

The Catechism doesn't say that Muslims are SAVED. It says they are included in God's plan of salvation. Huge difference. All of humanity is included in God's plan, as Christ died for ALL of us.

Bruce. Please stop with these attacks and at least make an attempt to engage in legitimate, well thought out discussion.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 8 2004, 06:40 AM'] So, stringing this all together, you NEED the Roman Catholic sacraments to ensure salvation, at least those who KNOW about them, and have potential access to them must use them, and believe totally that the Catholic Church is the effective agent ... [/quote]
You're a blunt fellow, so I'm sure you'll appreciate my bluntness.

You're correct. If you are aware of the truth contained in the Roman Catholic Church, and are aware of the sacraments, and willfully reject them, you will probably go to hell.

[Bruce S]

[quote]You're correct. If you are aware of the truth contained in the Roman Catholic Church, and are aware of the sacraments, and willfully reject them, you will probably go to hell.[/quote]

OUCH.

Oh well, at least I'm not going there blind, I do know the Catholic Church positions, some I accept, some I reject.

Don't tell my Priest, that might mean they will bar me from morning Mass, and I'm rather enjoying them.

If you DO some sacraments, and DO NOT do others, do you get to heaven or not...

Is there such a thing as 30% Catholic? I'm about at that level...

Hey, without me, you would be talking to yourselves, how much fun is that? You NEED a heretic around, it keeps things lively.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 8 2004, 09:58 AM']
OUCH.

Oh well, at least I'm not going there blind, I do know the Catholic Church positions, some I accept, some I reject.

Don't tell my Priest, that might mean they will bar me from morning Mass, and I'm rather enjoying them.

If you DO some sacraments, and DO NOT do others, do you get to heaven or not...

Is there such a thing as 30% Catholic? I'm about at that level...

Hey, without me, you would be talking to yourselves, how much fun is that? You NEED a heretic around, it keeps things lively. [/quote]
"Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood [b]you do not have life within you"[/b]

Come on Bruce thought you read Scripture?

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 8 2004, 09:54 AM'] You're a blunt fellow, so I'm sure you'll appreciate my bluntness.

You're correct. If you are aware of the truth contained in the Roman Catholic Church, and are aware of the sacraments, and willfully reject them, you will probably go to hell. [/quote]
Hence, what I said above about being close to the truth on this one.

[Livin_the_MASS]

SHHHHHHH The facts are coming out the Truth that can't be denied. He's hidding again? hmmm????? :ph34r:

[Bruce S]

[quote]Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you do not have life within you"

[/quote]

I did, last Sunday, only YOU won't accept that I did.