Knights Of Columbus Third Degree Ceremony

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

I just did the 3rd degree today. I partook of the "new" 3rd degree. Let me just assure anyone reading this forum that the concerns expressed herein are now moot. I had some Brother Knights explain the "old third degree" so that I could understand what you guys were talking about.

Rest assured that the new 3rd degree is completely different and contains no elements of deception whatsoever.

I too completed my 3rd degree yesterday, and I completely concur

[Pliny]

I just did the 3rd degree today. I partook of the "new" 3rd degree. Let me just assure anyone reading this forum that the concerns expressed herein are now moot. I had some Brother Knights explain the "old third degree" so that I could understand what you guys were talking about.

Rest assured that the new 3rd degree is completely different and contains no elements of deception whatsoever.

 

Cool.  Deception isn't good and it is not necessary to trick a Catholic in order to make a point.

 

I'm happy because of the change for the better.  Our discussion here has borne fruit!

 

Now if we could only do something about the way 4th degree knights dress.  I mean it might be cool to have a sword and all, but I wouldn't be caught dead wearing the 4th degree regalia and one of those funny looking hats.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Pliny

[MIKolbe]

if you're dead, wouldn't you be relatively easy to catch?

[CatholicsAreKewl]

if you're dead, wouldn't you be relatively easy to catch?

 

3rd degree BURN.

Edited November 30, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[sir_knight]

I appreciate your charitible response.

My third degree experience was soon after I converted to Catholicism almost 15 years ago, so this is not something recent, though it has stuck in my craw somewhat.

Up until that point, every Catholic experience I had as a seeker and later as a convert was a good and wonderful experience. What I appreciated most about my seeking into the faith is that it was never pushed. I was always given the space to discern for myself. All Catholic teaching was presented in a reasonable way. I would have resisted any attempt to teach by deception.

You don't need to lock someone in a room all day, and then tell him it was for his own good to teach him about boredom. You don't need to slap somoene on the face to teach him about the need to forgive. You don't need to lie on the ground in my yard pretending to be ill to teach me a lesson about charity and coming to the aid of the sick. All these things can be taught from real life experiences. (And none of these examples have to do with the K of C third degree initiation directly).

I have had the time to reflect on the Third Degree, and even encountered some of the members of the degree team on a K of C bowling tournament, and one of them explained it all to me, but not to my satisfaction. It just seems to me that everyone who is involved buys into it without question.

I will admit that I am in the minority about this. The only other person I know who at the time was strongly against used a crude expression and called it a "mind ****." (He's now a priest, so I hope he's cleaned up his language a little).

I have told my wife all about it and told my sons too. I never used trickery with my sons, and would not be a part of having the tricked by a Catholic organization of all things.

Further, it was not a sin to share that with them, and might very well have been a sin (for me) to NOT share that.

It would not be a sin for me to tell all on the internet, either, though I refrain for now, as I am interested in looking at this from your perspective.

[sir_knight]

Don't give up on the Knights . . . a lot of things have changed in the last 15 years. I am on1st, 2nd and 4th degree teams, and was recently the honoree at a 3 rd degree ceremony. I'd recommend you find a young council and renew your membership, then attend a 3rd degree as an observer. I think you will be pleasantly surprised, and impressed. Also, I'd recommend taking a role on a 1st degree team . . . Warden would be a good starting point. The Knights have a premiere insurance program, and you should avail yourself of that opportunity. . . . look especially at the annuity program.

Good Luck and Vivat Jesus!

[Paul L.]

   I just completed the Third Degree this weekend in Elmira, New York and it was nothing like all of these posts!  These posts are giving false information to anyone searching the internet for useful information.

 

 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Like I know prudence is nescisary in what to say and not say about others when there not present and when to say it and who to say it to or its idle gossip or at worst defaming another persons character, but this secret society stuff scares me, sounds kinda freemasonry. But all in all also I boast in things Jesus does for me and he was always telling people to keep what he was doing to themselves, I guess to not make a show of it, to show off, making the seriousness of salvation some entertainment spectacle, and let peoples curiosity of your demeanor, charity, joy etc to draw them to ask questions. Idk I hope these knights are cool though. 

Please forgive me Lord a putrid sinner. 

Jesus "peter put away your sword, violence begats violence"

 

Knights are warriors who are called to kill another during war. Just war doctrine I guess. I hope, wish and pray for all violence to end on this planet. 

Edited March 19, 2018 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Kevin lyon]

I was also highly offended by this ceremony. In my ceremony the knights attempted to publicly ridicule any who (under the pressure of public ridicule) could not remember all the ten commandments. I had just converted and had learned that judgement is reserved for god. This ceremony was not remotely in line with the beautiful teachings of my RCIA class. I have also decided it is a sin to keep quiet, so no need for any guilt trips here

[Kevin lyon]

Recent email to my pastor on the subject... mistakes in grammar and all

Hi Father Matthew,

(I have been meaning to send this email for years.... apologies for the delay)

I converted to Catholicism in 2013. I am writing you today to discuss two very different experiences I had as I entered the church in hopes that you can help me reconcile them. The first was my RCIA class. I was truly fortunate to be in Paul Thigpen’s last RCIA class at St Brendan’s (before he went on to translate works of saints into modern day languages…. What a guy!) . This entire experience was quite simply the most beautiful spiritual exploration of my life. I learned so much that I will carry with me to my last days on this earth and beyond. I will never be more grateful for my good fortune. It is difficult to summarize all that I learned, but the underlying theme of the entire course was the depth of God's love and the connection we as god’s people all share.

Shortly after my confirmation I joined the Knights of Columbus. I joined because my father in law was very active and so was aware of all the good works that they do. Before I go on and explain what turned out to be a very negative experience, let me say that I truly respect much of the work the knights do. Their work for the unborn, in particular, is something I very much admire, and would like to support.

However, I was quite taken aback by what was in my view the rather Machiavellian nature of the third-degree exemplification. Now, as I assume you are aware, they swear you to secrecy about these ceremonies before you go through them. After prayer and contemplation, I have decided that it is not a sin to go against this particular oath (sworn in ignorance), and it may even be a sin to keep quiet….. In this ceremony there is an attempt to publicly shame any who can not name all of the 10 commandments… on the spot, in a public setting. I was one of the last people in my fairly large group that the leader of this ceremony approached, so I saw how uncomfortable he made everyone as he went around the room and asked for the next commandment… laying his stern judgement on those who under the pressure of his attention could not recall one of the remaining on the list. This was just a few short months after the beautiful loving nature of the church was outlined to me in RCIA where it was stressed that judgement was reserved for the lord and the lord alone. As this ….lets say gentleman… approached I was quite angry that an organization that is recognized by the church would treat its members in this fashion, regardless of the intent behind the ceremony. I found myself gritting my teeth as he approached and very shortly said… “yeah, I don’t remember either”, quite simply to end the offensive farce as quickly as possible.

Obviously, I know that the ten commandments are part of the bedrock of our church and certainly support any organization that wants its members to know them and live them. If the knights had made us pass a test or complete an in-depth course on this subject I would have applauded. I don’t, however, see how public shaming and human judgement as a teaching mechanism is useful or in line with the teachings of the beautiful church I learned about in RCIA.

There were other moments in my brief tenure with the knights that caused me concern. The mandatory sales presentation from the knight’s sales rep, who I had been warned by a former grand knight had garnered several complaints, was much too much of a stereotypical pushy sales call than demonstration of concern for the welfare of brother knights. In either the 1st or 2nd degree exemplification (I don’t recall which) a plastic skull was used as one of the props, which apparently had replaced an actual skull in earlier iterations of this ceremony. Also, in one of the only meetings I attended a very reasonable suggestion by the gentleman who at the time was the groups lead cook to allow voluntary donations for the weekly dinners, so all of the fundraising was not used to feed ourselves (which made me uncomfortable as well), was shot down somewhat coarsely by the leadership.

All of the above I tried to brush off as simple human failings, but the Machiavellian, judgmental nature of the knight's  foundational third-degree exemplification, in such sharp contrast to what I had learned in RCIA, was too much for me to bear. I have since asked to no longer be a member of this organization. The whole experience has left a truly bad taste in my mouth. Unfortunately, this experience tempered what was my overwhelming excitement I had as a new member of the church as a result of RCIA.  I have since gone on-line (in some catholic chat rooms) and realized that I am far from the only one who felt this way about the third-degree exemplification, but there does not seem to be any inclination by the knights to make any changes to it.

I am curious if you have any thoughts you would like to share on the matter or if you have any advice. I would love an opportunity for fellowship in an organization that is a little more in line with what I learned in RCIA, but haven’t found one. Thoughts? I am also concerned that the delicate faith of some other new converts could be shaken by similar experiences with the knights. I was fortunate that I had been attending mass for ten years prior to my conversion, so I had a foundation from which to draw. Other converts are truly lost and have gloriously found the church as a way to save their life. Yet they may not be strong enough yet in their faith for it not to be shaken.  I fear if someone in such a state had the same experience as I had with the knights, we may lose them.... and what a tragedy that would be.

Thanks in advance for your help (and for reading this lengthy email),

 

Kevin Lyon

[Seven77]

Hey, thanks for posting. First off, I'm sorry for your negative experience. I believe the GK was there---wonder what he thought of the public shaming? As a 4th degree Knight, i have had fairly positive experiences for the most part. I will just say this, since you mentioned it---parts of exemplification ceremonies can be confusing and cryptic, and could be a cause for stumbling  if not properly explained/understood. 

Taking to brother knights, more experienced, may be helpful... anyway, I would hope that your pastor ( if you already sent the email) is a  chaplain for your local Knights' Council because that might make things easier.

 

[Seven77]

1 hour ago, Seven77 said:

Hey, thanks for posting. First off, I'm sorry for your negative experience. I believe the GK was there---wonder what he thought of the public shaming? As a 4th degree Knight, i have had fairly positive experiences for the most part. I will just say this, since you mentioned it---parts of exemplification ceremonies can be confusing and cryptic, and could be a cause for stumbling  if not properly explained/understood. 

Taking to brother knights, more experienced, may be helpful... anyway, I would hope that your pastor ( if you already sent the email) is a  chaplain for your local Knights' Council because that might make things easier.

 

Btw, it is best to continue this via private message... 

[Kevin lyon]

I'm sorry. There is nothing anyone could explain, that would make what I saw acceptable or in line with how Jesus (the embodiment of love) would want. His people to act.. The end does not justify the means, so the "purpose" is irrelavent.. I pray that the knights come to realize how dangerous and irresponsible this ceremony is.

[Kevin lyon]

As for your suggestion to keep this dialogue private.... absolutely not.... The secretive nature of these ceremonies (backed by oaths given in ignorance), is in my opinion what has allowed this situation to continue to fester for as long as it has. The more people that speak out publicly the better. Using public shaming as a teaching mechanism is simply wrong and not in line with the loving nature of Christ.  I believe the church has learned some valuable lessons regarding keeping uncomfortable truths in the dark in recent decades. The knights should learn from these lessons.

[Seven77]

8 hours ago, Kevin lyon said:

I'm sorry. There is nothing anyone could explain, that would make what I saw acceptable or in line with how Jesus (the embodiment of love) would want. His people to act.. The end does not justify the means, so the "purpose" is irrelavent.. I pray that the knights come to realize how dangerous and irresponsible this ceremony is.

I think you just need to kind of chill out. Just take some time to process the whole thing. Just because somebody up there acted like a jerk during your 3rd° ceremony doesn't mean you have to discount the whole thing. Have you even been to other ones? You're making rash generalizations.

And some of the things you're freaking out about aren't worth it. For example, there's nothing wrong with a human skull used as a symbol--- it represents the idea that one should always live with the understanding that life is fragile and short and we will die someday. Properly understood, there's nothing really all that  twisted about it.

 Not telling you to keep it private, I'm telling you to discuss it with some of the Knights themselves in real life.