God Of The Old Testament And God Of The New Testament.

[OraProMe]

I was wondering if someone could explain the extreme polar opposites of God in scripture to me. The Catholic Church teaches that the biblical authors were inspired by God to reveal (among other things) his own nature to humans. In the Old Testament the authors write about a God who orders floods to drown all humanity, who calls for the execution of sinners and describes himself as a "vengeful God". One psalm describes God as a "God of Terror" while the stories of Moses speak of a God who kills the first born of every Egyptian. To me this seems completely opposed to the notion of God in the New Testament who is all forgiving, all loving and love itself (St. John I think says "God is Love"). Given that the Church teaches both these books are divinely inspired why has God revealed himself to be a God of revenge and punishment (the Mosaic law which although replaced by Christ was at one stage divine law) and a God of love and forgivness (Jesus saving the prostitute)? How can these seemingly contradictory attributes of God be reconcilled?

Edited December 13, 2009 by OraProMe

[Antigonos]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='13 December 2009 - 08:26 AM' timestamp='1260681996' post='2019541']
I was wondering if someone could explain the extreme polar opposites of God in scripture to me. The Catholic Church teaches that the biblical authors were inspired by God to reveal (among other things) his own nature to humans. In the Old Testament the authors write about a God who orders floods to drown all humanity, who calls for the execution of sinners and describes himself as a "vengeful God". One psalm describes God as a "God of Terror" while the stories of Moses speak of a God who kills the first born of every Egyptian. To me this seems completely opposed to the notion of God in the New Testament who is all forgiving, all loving and love itself (St. John I think says "God is Love"). Given that the Church teaches both these books are divinely inspired why has God revealed himself to be a God of revenge and punishment (the Mosaic law which although replaced by Christ was at one stage divine law) and a God of love and forgivness (Jesus saving the prostitute)? How can these seemingly contradictory attributes of God be reconcilled?
[/quote]

Actually, this is a misreading of both Testaments. But since I must rush off to work, I will have to reply at length later.

[Pomak]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='13 December 2009 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1260681996' post='2019541']
I was wondering if someone could explain the extreme polar opposites of God in scripture to me. The Catholic Church teaches that the biblical authors were inspired by God to reveal (among other things) his own nature to humans. In the Old Testament the authors write about a God who orders floods to drown all humanity, who calls for the execution of sinners and describes himself as a "vengeful God". One psalm describes God as a "God of Terror" while the stories of Moses speak of a God who kills the first born of every Egyptian. To me this seems completely opposed to the notion of God in the New Testament who is all forgiving, all loving and love itself (St. John I think says "God is Love"). Given that the Church teaches both these books are divinely inspired why has God revealed himself to be a God of revenge and punishment (the Mosaic law which although replaced by Christ was at one stage divine law) and a God of love and forgivness (Jesus saving the prostitute)? How can these seemingly contradictory attributes of God be reconcilled?
[/quote]

Should I presume that since you asked this in the debate table, that this is open for us "Saracens" to answer?

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Pomak' date='13 December 2009 - 02:47 AM' timestamp='1260690437' post='2019592']
Should I presume that since you asked this in the debate table, that this is open for us "Saracens" to answer?
[/quote]

I really just wanted to see how it's explained in Catholic theology but sure, fresh perspectives are always welcome Aslong as someone answers before the thread gets de-railed.

[Varg]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='13 December 2009 - 12:26 AM' timestamp='1260681996' post='2019541']
I was wondering if someone could explain the extreme polar opposites of God in scripture to me.
[/quote]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder"]Reading this should help.[/url]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='13 December 2009 - 12:26 AM' timestamp='1260681996' post='2019541']
I was wondering if someone could explain the extreme polar opposites of God in scripture to me. The Catholic Church teaches that the biblical authors were inspired by God to reveal (among other things) his own nature to humans. In the Old Testament the authors write about a God who orders floods to drown all humanity, who calls for the execution of sinners and describes himself as a "vengeful God". One psalm describes God as a "God of Terror" while the stories of Moses speak of a God who kills the first born of every Egyptian. To me this seems completely opposed to the notion of God in the New Testament who is all forgiving, all loving and love itself (St. John I think says "God is Love"). Given that the Church teaches both these books are divinely inspired why has God revealed himself to be a God of revenge and punishment (the Mosaic law which although replaced by Christ was at one stage divine law) and a God of love and forgivness (Jesus saving the prostitute)? How can these seemingly contradictory attributes of God be reconcilled?
[/quote]

God is both all-merciful and all-just.

[little_miss_late]

OraProMe and others, I have a question back at you- when people try to play down the "hard truths" of Christianity by saying stuff like "Jesus was basically just a happy socialist" or "God loves everyone and don't worry about all the rules"-- doesn't it make you cringe a little? Don't you feel like they are missing something?

Because when people say that "the Old Testament God" was all full of punishment and rage, and that there's a New Covenant now and so you don't have to worry about all that other stuff, I cringe inside. In those days, there was no King in Israel. But it's not like there wasn't God.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='little_miss_late' date='13 December 2009 - 12:02 PM' timestamp='1260723747' post='2019676']
OraProMe and others, I have a question back at you- when people try to play down the "hard truths" of Christianity by saying stuff like "Jesus was basically just a happy socialist" or "God loves everyone and don't worry about all the rules"-- doesn't it make you cringe a little? Don't you feel like they are missing something?

Because when people say that "the Old Testament God" was all full of punishment and rage, and that there's a New Covenant now and so you don't have to worry about all that other stuff, I cringe inside. In those days, there was no King in Israel. But it's not like there wasn't God.
[/quote]

I never said that and I don't have an agenda either way. I would just like to know how seemingly contradictory statements about God's nature, that Catholics believe God himself revealed through the bible, sit with eachother.

[JimR-OCDS]

Although Scripture is the inspired word of God, the inspiration was given to human beings,
who described the revelations they received, according to their ability, and in the context of their
culture and limited human understanding..

In the Old Testament, we have God described with the mindset of ancient tribal theology.

In the New Testament, we have God as revealed to us through Jesus Christ.

Both speak of the same God, because there is only one God. However in Jesus Christ, he brings us
God from his own divine nature.

Jim

[Servus_Mariae]

Something to consider as well...humanity underwent a change (pre and post redemption) and thus God's relationship with us accommodated the different states of humanity.

The state of humanity prior to the fall was one of total unjustified perversion. Sacrifices and oblation were offered in reparation for sin over and over again...because humanity was in constant need. Those who did not offer sacrifice inherited one from God's wrath as the means for their atonement and the satisfaction of God's justice.

Likewise, after redemption, mankind was categorically justified by the death of Christ. Thus, mercy reigns. Certainly, justice is still fulfilled in the event of an unrepentant sinner unwillingness to receive the mercy offered(whether it be temporal by allowing him to endure the consequence of sin which is always destructive, or eternal in damnation). Nonetheless, God's vengeance is no longer demanded in the same way age of mercy merited by the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Servus_Mariae

[JimR-OCDS]

Servus_Mariae

[quote]
Something to consider as well...humanity underwent a change (pre and post redemption) and thus God's relationship with us accommodated the different states of humanity.
[/quote]

Agree, humans evolved spiritually as well as biologically.

Jim

[Servus_Mariae]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='13 December 2009 - 06:37 PM' timestamp='1260747479' post='2019917']
Servus_Mariae



Agree, humans evolved spiritually as well as biologically.

Jim
[/quote]

That's a good point of reflection...how we would receive Divine activity would have been different as well. Theologically concise doctrine explicating the finer points a fallen human nature would not have been the strong suit of the tribal man. Fire and brimstone is pretty clear though!

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Servus_Mariae' date='13 December 2009 - 06:35 PM' timestamp='1260747308' post='2019916']
Something to consider as well...humanity underwent a change (pre and post redemption) and thus God's relationship with us accommodated the different states of humanity.
[b]
The state of humanity prior to the fall [/b]was one of total unjustified perversion. Sacrifices and oblation were offered in reparation for sin over and over again...because humanity was in constant need. Those who did not offer sacrifice inherited one from God's wrath as the means for their atonement and the satisfaction of God's justice.

Likewise, after redemption, mankind was categorically justified by the death of Christ. Thus, mercy reigns. Certainly, justice is still fulfilled in the event of an unrepentant sinner unwillingness to receive the mercy offered(whether it be temporal by allowing him to endure the consequence of sin which is always destructive, or eternal in damnation). Nonetheless, God's vengeance is no longer demanded in the same way age of mercy merited by the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ.
[/quote]

This is a better explanation. Thanks

But do you mean prior to the redemption?

[Servus_Mariae]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='13 December 2009 - 08:42 PM' timestamp='1260754969' post='2019979']
This is a better explanation. Thanks

But do you mean prior to the redemption?
[/quote]

That is exactly what I meant...good catch!

[Antigonos]

[quote name='Servus_Mariae' date='14 December 2009 - 02:35 AM' timestamp='1260747308' post='2019916']
Something to consider as well...humanity underwent a change (pre and post redemption) and thus God's relationship with us accommodated the different states of humanity.

The state of humanity prior to the fall was one of total unjustified perversion. Sacrifices and oblation were offered in reparation for sin over and over again...because humanity was in constant need. Those who did not offer sacrifice inherited one from God's wrath as the means for their atonement and the satisfaction of God's justice.

Likewise, after redemption, mankind was categorically justified by the death of Christ. Thus, mercy reigns. Certainly, justice is still fulfilled in the event of an unrepentant sinner unwillingness to receive the mercy offered(whether it be temporal by allowing him to endure the consequence of sin which is always destructive, or eternal in damnation). Nonetheless, God's vengeance is no longer demanded in the same way age of mercy merited by the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ.
[/quote]


I find this explanation fascinating but totally divorced from reality. since I do not see any improvement in the human character, nor any lessening of what you term "God's vengeance". There has been war and sin continually since the beginning of human history, and we've thought up ways of being nasty that the ancients never knew.

Also, I question your statement about the state of humanity "prior to the fall" -- I presume you mean the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden -- being one of "total perversion". For one thing, there were only two people in the world then, and the Garden was idyllic. I presume you mean the generation of the Flood.

Considering that Christians have persecuted the Jews for 2000 years, and when there weren't any Jews around, they turned on each other, I find the idea that "mercy reigns" since the life of Jesus a bit odd.