What Divides Muslims And Christians

[Nihil Obstat]

I apologize if you feel that I was attacking you. I just figured that a further question in this case means more than any answer might.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='11 January 2010 - 08:50 PM' timestamp='1263261023' post='2035110']
Jesus wrote lots of stuff too. The difference being that what Jesus wrote makes profound sense. Even if we were to not accept the 'Son of God part'.
[/quote]



The only historical record we have of Christ's writing anything during His life on earth was when He wrote something (we don't know what) on the ground in the Pericope Adulterae (John 8:1-11)

Edited January 17, 2010 by Resurrexi

[reyb]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='17 January 2010 - 12:17 PM' timestamp='1263748676' post='2039122']
I apologize if you feel that I was attacking you. I just figured that a further question in this case means more than any answer might.
[/quote]

Of course, it is obvious and that is my point. You can never justify the existence of historical Jesus other than faith.

This issue is as old as Christianity itself between early Church fathers (who believes in historical figure of Jesus Christ) and Marcion (who denies it but from whom the scripture which you now called ‘New Testament’ was taken.)

[reyb]

[quote name='philbo' date='14 January 2010 - 07:57 AM' timestamp='1263473859' post='2036894']
[b]That the gospels were dictated to a third party rather than being actually written by the person concerned is pretty much taken as read; however, there is nothing to prove that the people doing the dictating were those to whom they're ascribed[/b].
[/quote]

Who told you that the writers (of the scriptures) are not the true witnesses?

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='11 January 2010 - 08:50 PM' timestamp='1263261023' post='2035110']
[b]Jesus wrote lots of stuff too[/b]. The difference being that what Jesus wrote makes profound sense. Even if we were to not accept the 'Son of God part'. Living by his teachings would make the world a better place and life much more enjoyable. Also I think there is a considerable amount of archaeological evidence that such a man did live. It is illogical to think that on the one hand that he would make profound teachings on how to live but at the same time be out of his mind in making claims about God. Schizophrenics are obviously seen for what they are. Jesus addressed 5000 men plus woman and children on one occasion. How many would he have addressed in his ministry in total. These people have passed the history down from generation to generation not to mention manuscripts and the supernatural document of all documents 'The Holy Bible' If this is not sufficient to believe then we cannot believe anything. Even our own existence would be in question. And that's only from a general perspective. Many of us commonly have personal experiences of Jesus as well.
[/quote]

Can you show us just one (authentic letter of your historical Jesus Christ)?

[reyb]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 January 2010 - 09:21 PM' timestamp='1263262863' post='2035124']
Quoted the wrong person.


My point is that their existence is based on some degree of evidence, just as is the existence of Christ. You happen to accept the evidence for many demonstrably real people. I accept the evidence for Jesus Christ.
[/quote]

Show to us your 'evidence' regarding the existence of this historical Jesus other than your bible. (Because if you cannot show us these evidences then let us discuss it in the light of the scripture since both of us accept it as Truth).

[reyb]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='17 January 2010 - 12:51 PM' timestamp='1263750701' post='2039133']


The only historical record we have of Christ's writing anything during His life on earth was when He wrote something (we don't know what) on the ground in the Pericope Adulterae (John 8:1-11)
[/quote]

Therefore, it is not a ‘historical record’ since there is no ‘letter’ at all. It is just an interpretation to the scripture that a historical figure named Jesus Christ wrote something on the ground.

[reyb]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='13 January 2010 - 09:46 AM' timestamp='1263393960' post='2036119']
Sheer ignorance. The first generation after Jesus' death we have the earliest Christians going around writing letters to each other. Later on we even see Roman officials (Pliny the Younger) writing about this obscure, long dead, Roman criminal. Don't be dense; for a single private citizen from a Roman occupied territory, the amount of historical detail we have on Jesus is unparalleled.
[/quote]

Again, show these 'unparalleled historical detail' of this historical Jesus.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='philbo' date='15 January 2010 - 11:06 AM' timestamp='1263514009' post='2037248']
There are some historically verified parts of the bible.. there are some historically verified parts of the Da Vinci Code, too, but that doesn't make it a historically accurate document.

Half of my problem with the Bible is that as people study it, they seem to manage to come up with pretty much anything that supports whatever view they held in the first place. As a repository of ultimate truth, it's quite staggeringly vague. Have you ever wondered that if this is the word that God wants to pass on to mankind, why He didn't make it unambiguous?
[/quote]

We believe that God wants us to come to him because of love not for any other reason and we are to have [i]free choice [/i]in the matter. If the Bible were like a legal document, proving without doubt the existence of God and what he teaches then people would [i]be forced[/i] to believe and it would be classified as science. Therefore the Bible is somewhat cryptic and unproven which allows people to choose or not to choose what is written within. People who choose to believe do so firstly because they like what they read, it satisfies a yearning from within. This is believed to be God inviting each person. Some choose to ignore it and go their own way scoffing and hating the idea of something greater than they. Others just find it does not fit with their idea's and choose to ignore it. And so forth. As faith grows each persons relationship with God seems to be different. Some just feel that belief is right for them others have seen visions. These are the two extremes, there are of course many levels in between but most would fall into the first category I would imagine. I personally have experienced events of the spirit which has confirmed my belief in God. Why some have and some don't I don't know I certainly do not consider myself anything above the ordinary, but I suppose there is nothing like suffering to make us search for something greater. Many people have found their faith this way.
There is a page on the other historical accounts outside of the Bible and also regarding my query about archaeological evidence which you still have not answered. You may be able to discredit it but it should be interesting reading for you anyway [url="http://www.mtio.com/articles/aissar29.htm"]HERE[/url]


[quote name='Resurrexi' date='18 January 2010 - 04:51 AM' timestamp='1263750701' post='2039133']


Theonly historical record we have of Christ's writing anything during Hislife on earth was when He wrote something (we don't know what) on theground in the Pericope Adulterae (John 8:1-11)
[/quote]

Aha me hearty put yer spy glass on and look at posts [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=101189&view=findpost&p=2035695"]99[/url] [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=101189&view=findpost&p=2036593"]114[/url] I was writing in a metaphorical sense.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='18 January 2010 - 03:08 AM' timestamp='1263802081' post='2039568']
We believe that God wants us to come to him because of love not for any other reason and we are to have [i]free choice [/i]in the matter. If the Bible were like a legal document, proving without doubt the existence of God and what he teaches then people would [i]be forced[/i] to believe and it would be classified as science. Therefore the Bible is somewhat cryptic and unproven which allows people to choose or not to choose what is written within. People who choose to believe do so firstly because they like what they read, it satisfies a yearning from within. This is believed to be God inviting each person. Some choose to ignore it and go their own way scoffing and hating the idea of something greater than they. Others just find it does not fit with their idea's and choose to ignore it. And so forth. As faith grows each persons relationship with God seems to be different. Some just feel that belief is right for them others have seen visions. These are the two extremes, there are of course many levels in between but most would fall into the first category I would imagine. I personally have experienced events of the spirit which has confirmed my belief in God. Why some have and some don't I don't know I certainly do not consider myself anything above the ordinary, but I suppose there is nothing like suffering to make us search for something greater. Many people have found their faith this way.
There is a page on the other historical accounts outside of the Bible and also regarding my query about archaeological evidence which you still have not answered. You may be able to discredit it but it should be interesting reading for you anyway [url="http://www.mtio.com/articles/aissar29.htm"]HERE[/url]
[/quote]

But the problem to your above statement is the issue of God's righteousness in this kind of ‘free choice’.

Suppose, you were born, grew, taught and learned to live as a ‘good and honest’ Muslim in an Islamic community and thus, you do not accept Jesus as Son of God while without doubt and unwavering heart put your faith to the Holy Quran and not to the epistles, books, or letters in the New Testament.

Do you really think he is not called by God just like your calling? Can you please explain to us - where is God's righteousness in this scenario'?

[philbo]

[quote name='reyb' date='16 January 2010 - 04:19 PM' timestamp='1263655184' post='2038441']
Phibo,

It seems you do not accept the bible as an 'authentic' revelation of Christ or a Holy Book.
[/quote]
Correct.

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='18 January 2010 - 09:08 AM' timestamp='1263802081' post='2039568']
We believe that God wants us to come to him because of love not for any other reason and we are to have [i]free choice [/i]in the matter. If the Bible were like a legal document, proving without doubt the existence of God and what he teaches then people would [i]be forced[/i] to believe and it would be classified as science. Therefore the Bible is somewhat cryptic and unproven which allows people to choose or not to choose what is written within. People who choose to believe do so firstly because they like what they read, it satisfies a yearning from within. This is believed to be God inviting each person. Some choose to ignore it and go their own way scoffing and hating the idea of something greater than they. Others just find it does not fit with their idea's and choose to ignore it. And so forth. As faith grows each persons relationship with God seems to be different. Some just feel that belief is right for them others have seen visions. These are the two extremes, there are of course many levels in between but most would fall into the first category I would imagine. I personally have experienced events of the spirit which has confirmed my belief in God. Why some have and some don't I don't know I certainly do not consider myself anything above the ordinary, but I suppose there is nothing like suffering to make us search for something greater. Many people have found their faith this way.
[/quote]
That sounds like so much circumlocution.. trying desperately to convince yourself of something you want to believe. If God's really there, why does He put so much effort into making the world behave exactly as you'd expect it to if He didn't?

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='18 January 2010 - 09:08 AM' timestamp='1263802081' post='2039568']
There is a page on the other historical accounts outside of the Bible and also regarding my query about archaeological evidence which you still have not answered. You may be able to discredit it but it should be interesting reading for you anyway [url="http://www.mtio.com/articles/aissar29.htm"]HERE[/url]
[/quote]
This comment seems strange:
[quote][font="Arial"][size="3"]Josephus has a longer passage on Jesus. For centuries this had been dismissed as a Christian interpolation. But what is doubtless the original wording has now been restored. [/size][/font][/quote]
..I was under the impression that for centuries it was believed that Josephus had written about Christ, but only comparatively recently did the balance of opinion change to it being an interpolation - having read at inordinate length both sides of the argument (and an awful lot of Josephus' work in translation.. has to be said, he wasn't a guy who would use one word when a whole page would do), I came down on the "later interpolation" side - the words themselves are just too twee (not to mention concise) for him to have written.

There's a huge difference, too, in presenting evidence that there were Christians around a few decades later (Tacitus, Suetonus, Pliny etc.) - I do not doubt (nor do any other sceptics I know) that there were people around who believed shortly afterwards, but people manage to believe all sorts of things without proof, so I don't find that fact to be at all convincing.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' date='18 January 2010 - 11:31 PM' timestamp='1263817870' post='2039589']
But the problem to your above statement is the issue of God's righteousness in this kind of 'free choice'.

Suppose, you were born, grew, taught and learned to live as a 'good and honest' Muslim in an Islamic community and thus, you do not accept Jesus as Son of God while without doubt and unwavering heart put your faith to the Holy Quran and not to the epistles, books, or letters in the New Testament.

Do you really think he is not called by God just like your calling? Can you please explain to us - where is God's righteousness in this scenario'?
[/quote]
My response no doubt will earn me some minus points, but ah well such is life. We have a saying 'Go forth and spread the good news, use words if you have to' God never judges people on what they don't know. If I was stranded on a deserted island as a child and never learnt about Jesus but felt in my soul an affinity with the islands nature and was kind and caring to it. I might even make up my own names for what I felt. I might call this feeling of a loving presence within me Muhammad. Will God condemn me because I didn't call it Jesus? Jesus taught us to love him and our neighbours as the two great commandments. Obeying these is sufficient if you have not had opportunity to learn all of what was taught. Of course many of us have been blessed to have learnt the history of Jesus and his love and are able to understand more fully what we feel within. We have learnt the 'Good news' and now have a duty to spread it. Good and peaceful Muslims are doing what they feel is right. I will not make a judgement on my fellow man by saying who is right and who is wrong regarding Christianity and Islam, But I'm pretty sure there will be even agnostics in paradise. About atheists. If you reject totally the concept of God in your soul then you are probably doomed but it is possible to have God in your soul but not have recognised it in your mind. However only God will know how each case will be viewed so I will leave it up to you to consider what I have written.

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='18 January 2010 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1263851048' post='2039814']
My response no doubt will earn me some minus points, but ah well such is life. We have a saying 'Go forth and spread the good news, use words if you have to' God never judges people on what they don't know. If I was stranded on a deserted island as a child and never learnt about Jesus but felt in my soul an affinity with the islands nature and was kind and caring to it. I might even make up my own names for what I felt. I might call this feeling of a loving presence within me Muhammad. Will God condemn me because I didn't call it Jesus? Jesus taught us to love him and our neighbours as the two great commandments. Obeying these is sufficient if you have not had opportunity to learn all of what was taught. Of course many of us have been blessed to have learnt the history of Jesus and his love and are able to understand more fully what we feel within. We have learnt the 'Good news' and now have a duty to spread it. Good and peaceful Muslims are doing what they feel is right. I will not make a judgement on my fellow man by saying who is right and who is wrong regarding Christianity and Islam, But I'm pretty sure there will be even agnostics in paradise. About atheists. If you reject totally the concept of God in your soul then you are probably doomed but it is possible to have God in your soul but not have recognised it in your mind. However only God will know how each case will be viewed so I will leave it up to you to consider what I have written.
[/quote]

It is written in 1 Corinthians 1:30 (New International Version)

[b][font="Arial Narrow"][indent]It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.[/indent][/font][/b]

Your above statement regarding a ‘good-deserted man’ strongly opposed this verse in relation to the issue of God’s righteousness since you do not want to condemn ‘innocent or not-well-informed’ creature while on the other hand, you are nullifying Jesus Christ as our righteousness, holiness and redemption. I assumed, you yourself preached that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and Man and therefore no one can be saved without him but now, it seems you are saying - this idea is not absolute and definitive.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' date='19 January 2010 - 10:44 AM' timestamp='1263858243' post='2039873']
It is written in 1 Corinthians 1:30 (New International Version)

<b>[font="Arial Narrow"][indent]It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.[/indent][/font]</b>

Your above statement regarding a 'good-deserted man' strongly opposed this verse in relation to the issue of God's righteousness since you do not want to condemn 'innocent or not-well-informed' creature while on the other hand, you are nullifying Jesus Christ as our righteousness, holiness and redemption. I assumed, you yourself preached that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and Man and therefore no one can be saved without him but now, it seems you are saying - this idea is not absolute and definitive.
[/quote]

What I'm saying is that you can have and serve Jesus as your saviour and not know it. To be caught up in words is to think like a man. I only know English and this is not the language of the saviour. Will he condemn me because I do not use the language that he used? When one becomes a pure spirit one thinks like a pure spirit. I have been taught the Catholic faith and decided that it fits well with what I feel deep inside. Therefore I have not only decided to accept it but also believe from my feelings that it is God's desire for 'me.' Once again I will propose to you. Will an intelligent God of love and compassion condemn a person because they have not been given the opportunity to learn what he teaches or that they have been led into error by others or their faulty thinking or by doing the same by a different set of creeds. Surely God can only expect from you what he has made you capable of. In the past I have made lots of mistakes in my own interpretations but I made them with a loving heart and a desire to know God better and to share. My daughter refuses to be part of any organised religion because she sees so much corruption of it. But she as a nurse is a pure and caring spirit. Not long ago she said to me "I don't know what happened dad! I said God bless to one of my patients." I replied "So Jesus found a way from your heart to your brain!" What goes on in our souls is far more important than what goes on in our minds as long as we strive to remain pure in mind and to seek a better relationship with our God. Give yourself to God and he will lead you where he wills you to serve what he has intended you for. As far as learning scripture I'm sure that we will eventually come to know what he desires us to know.

[Winchester]

We are not Gnostics--our Salvation does not depend on intellectualt apprehension.