What Divides Muslims And Christians

[philbo]

[quote name='Winchester' date='12 January 2010 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1263305793' post='2035325']
There are also coins with "George Washington" on them. As if this man ever existed.
[/quote]
Your point being?

I thought mine was fairly obvious: who wrote about Jesus while he was alive? What contemporary evidence is there for the chap at all?

[Jaime]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='11 January 2010 - 08:50 PM' timestamp='1263261023' post='2035110']
Jesus wrote lots of stuff too. The difference being that what Jesus wrote makes profound sense. Even if we were to not accept the 'Son of God part'. Living by his teachings would make the world a better place and life much more enjoyable. Also I think there is a considerable amount of archaeological evidence that such a man did live. It is illogical to think that on the one hand that he would make profound teachings on how to live but at the same time be out of his mind in making claims about God. Schizophrenics are obviously seen for what they are. Jesus addressed 5000 men plus woman and children on one occasion. How many would he have addressed in his ministry in total. These people have passed the history down from generation to generation not to mention manuscripts and the supernatural document of all documents 'The Holy Bible' If this is not sufficient to believe then we cannot believe anything. Even our own existence would be in question. And that's only from a general perspective. Many of us commonly have personal experiences of Jesus as well.
[/quote]


Jesus SAID a bunch of stuff. He didn't write anything.

[Winchester]

[quote name='philbo' date='12 January 2010 - 11:12 AM' timestamp='1263312740' post='2035379']
Your point being?[/quote]


[quote]
I thought mine was fairly obvious: who wrote about Jesus while he was alive? [/quote]
The guy who wrote that sign over His head on the Cross was one.

[quote]
What contemporary evidence is there for the chap at all?
[/quote]
You're talking about Him, aren't ya?

You don't accept the evidence. You say that and you quit looking so foolish.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Winchester

[philbo]

[quote name='Winchester' date='12 January 2010 - 05:44 PM' timestamp='1263314671' post='2035391']
The guy who wrote that sign over His head on the Cross was one.
[/quote]
And we "know" this because it was written about decades later by someone who wasn't there.

Who was around at the time, writing about this guy working miracles in front of crowds?

[quote name='Winchester' date='12 January 2010 - 05:44 PM' timestamp='1263314671' post='2035391']
You say that and you quit looking so foolish.
[/quote]
I'm looking foolish because I don't accept on faith something for which there is no contemporary evidence? In your eyes, perhaps.

[Winchester]

[quote name='philbo' date='12 January 2010 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1263314971' post='2035395']
And we "know" this because it was written about decades later by someone who wasn't there.

Who was around at the time, writing about this guy working miracles in front of crowds?[/quote]
You think all history was recorded by eyewitnesses?

[quote]
I'm looking foolish because I don't accept on faith something for which there is no contemporary evidence? In your eyes, perhaps.
[/quote]
You're looking foolish because you are claiming there's no evidence. There is evidence--you don't accept it.

[philbo]

[quote name='Winchester' date='12 January 2010 - 05:51 PM' timestamp='1263315074' post='2035396']
You think all history was recorded by eyewitnesses?


You're looking foolish because you are claiming there's no evidence. There is evidence--you don't accept it.
[/quote]
For someone who on another thread was picking me up on precisely what I was quoting, you're pretty slipshod about your own accuracy, aren't you?

Show me where I claimed there was no evidence. Is the word "contemporary" that difficult to understand? Where did I say "all history was recorded by eyewitnesses"?

Maybe you could simply answer the question: who, at the time, was writing down what this miracle-worker was doing? It's not exactly a difficult question to understand.

[Winchester]

[quote name='philbo' date='12 January 2010 - 12:20 PM' timestamp='1263316843' post='2035412']
For someone who on another thread was picking me up on precisely what I was quoting, you're pretty slipshod about your own accuracy, aren't you?[/quote]
Somebody's mad.
[quote]
Show me where I claimed there was no evidence. Is the word "contemporary" that difficult to understand? Where did I say "all history was recorded by eyewitnesses"?[/quote]
You're complaining that you don't know of any contemporaries of Jesus writing about Him.

[quote]
Maybe you could simply answer the question: who, at the time, was writing down what this miracle-worker was doing? It's not exactly a difficult question to understand.
[/quote]
Stanley Ismael Horowitz. Not many people have heard of him, but he is the precursor of all roving reporters and lived next to Jesus while they were growing up.

Where is it a requirement or a proof that an historical figure have a chronicler? How often was this done in Jewish culture at the time? The protties do this same wretched imitation of the Socratic method with their talking point arguments, so who gave this idea? If you came up with it on your own, congratulations because at first blush it looks like an actual argument with an actual point.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='philbo' date='12 January 2010 - 04:29 AM' timestamp='1263292153' post='2035296']


You did fail to answer the question, though: who did write about Jesus when he was alive?
[/quote]
Nobody.

On the other hand, nobody wrote about my grandfather while he was alive either. I never personally met him. Can I be sure he existed?


Of course this ignores the obvious point that a staggering number of people wrote about Him immediately following His death and Resurrection.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='13 January 2010 - 03:31 AM' timestamp='1263313882' post='2035386']
Jesus SAID a bunch of stuff. He didn't write anything.
[/quote]

Yeah I know what you mean, but I was saying it in a round about fashion. The Bible is the word of God, Jesus is God, therefore Jesus wrote the new testament by his actions. For example Einstein didn't write anything either, nor did Hawking (he can't) writers did it for them however we generally accept that it was them who wrote their theories. The stations of the cross were written by men. I have compiled a version with pictures based on my time in East Timor which I give freely to people, namely our RCIA Catecumins. People jokingly tell me that I should copy-write it. I reply that I can't because it was Jesus who wrote the stations of the cross. But technically you are correct Jesus never actually put pen to paper that we know of. It's just another one of those literal or hypothetical thingies that we get hung up on.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='philbo' date='13 January 2010 - 03:49 AM' timestamp='1263314971' post='2035395']
And we "know" this because it was written about decades later by someone who wasn't there.

[/quote]

The Apostles wrote about the history of Jesus ministry, four of them. Even though they wrote it years later they were there! And they wrote about it. Do you challenge the memory of four men who wrote very close to the same thing. Without doubt the four gospels were written for this very purpose of proof for people who stubbornly refuse to believe the history of Christ. But even the apostles had a hard time believing, so God brought two of them to a mountain where Jesus became supernatural and Moses and Elijah appeared. These men were Jews like the apostles so their appearance was to convince them to believe when they heard God speak and tell them to believe what Jesus was telling them. This was hard for them because Jews expected Jesus to lead them to freedom from the Romans not to be put to death to show the world that he would bring them to everlasting life through their own death. And Jews still haven't realised this!

Edited January 13, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[philbo]

[quote name='Winchester' date='12 January 2010 - 07:47 PM' timestamp='1263322072' post='2035477']
You're complaining that you don't know of any contemporaries of Jesus writing about Him.
[/quote]
Correct. Such incisive deductive powers.

[quote name='Winchester' date='12 January 2010 - 07:47 PM' timestamp='1263322072' post='2035477']
Stanley Ismael Horowitz. Not many people have heard of him, but he is the precursor of all roving reporters and lived next to Jesus while they were growing up.
[/quote]
Oh, it's a "let's make up a name that sounds Jewish, rather than acceding that the interloper actually has a point" sort of game, is it?

[quote name='Winchester' date='12 January 2010 - 07:47 PM' timestamp='1263322072' post='2035477']
Where is it a requirement or a proof that an historical figure have a chronicler? How often was this done in Jewish culture at the time? [/quote]
Given that Jesus is accorded a unique place in history, was in theory doing miracles witnessed by hundreds or even thousands of people, and yet no single physical record of any of these from the time exists - whether it was common in Jewish culture at the time isn't really relevant, because this chap was like nothing Jewish culture had ever seen before. Record keeping was pretty common in Roman culture, and none of them were writing about him, either.


[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='12 January 2010 - 09:07 PM' timestamp='1263326876' post='2035533']
Onthe other hand, nobody wrote about my grandfather while he was aliveeither. I never personally met him. Can I be sure he existed?
[/quote]
I wouldn't mind betting that a halfway-competent historian would be able to find loads of documentary evidence for your grandfather existing. Just because you've never looked for anything written about him. But then, you're not claiming your grandfather was performing miracles, healing the sick and all that malarkey - if you were making those claims, nobody writing about your grandfather would have more significance, wouldn't you say?

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='12 January 2010 - 09:07 PM' timestamp='1263326876' post='2035533']
Ofcourse this ignores the obvious point that a staggering number ofpeople wrote about Him immediately following His death and Resurrection.
[/quote]
Staggering? Immediately?

Sorry, there must be whole reams of material I wasn't aware of - would you care to point me to some?

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='13 January 2010 - 01:48 AM' timestamp='1263343730' post='2035700']
TheApostles wrote about the history of Jesus ministry, four of them. Eventhough they wrote it years later they were there! And they wrote aboutit. Do you challenge the memory of four men who wrote very close to thesame thing.[/quote]
You seem very sure about that... yes, the four gospels do overlap (including using the same wording - AIUI that's considered to be because the words were copied, not because they're independent corroborations of the same events); however, accepting that the canonical gospels were written by the apostles themselves is a leap of faith too far for me, I'm afraid. They didn't even use the same language.

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='13 January 2010 - 01:48 AM' timestamp='1263343730' post='2035700']
Without doubt the four gospels were written for this very purpose ofproof for people who stubbornly refuse to believe the history ofChrist.
[/quote]
Without doubt that is *why* they were written. And very likely by people who believed the story themselves...

[Winchester]

[quote name='philbo' date='13 January 2010 - 05:36 AM' timestamp='1263378977' post='2036057']
Correct. Such incisive deductive powers.[/quote]
I am widely known for my incisions.

[quote]
Oh, it's a "let's make up a name that sounds Jewish, rather than acceding that the interloper actually has a point" sort of game, is it?[/quote]
That's actually the name of the game. Milton Bradley produces it. You don't have a good point, though. You've said something and not demonstrated it means anything.

[quote]
Given that Jesus is accorded a unique place in history, was in theory doing miracles witnessed by hundreds or even thousands of people, and yet no single physical record of any of these from the time exists - whether it was common in Jewish culture at the time isn't really relevant, because this chap was like nothing Jewish culture had ever seen before. Record keeping was pretty common in Roman culture, and none of them were writing about him, either.[/quote]
So what's the percentage of surviving records, what sorts of things did Romans record (what was their criteria for recording) how many historians were alive...there's lots of things for you to do to support your theory. Obviously, these would be estimates. You've dismissed centuries of culture because one guy claimed to perform miracles. Reading the Bible, it seems miracles had happened before. The Jewish culture is quite important in this regard, actually. You're dismissing it because it doesn't fit in the casing for your magic bullet.

[quote]
Sorry, there must be whole reams of material I wasn't aware of - would you care to point me to some?[/quote]
If you were the sort who was intimately familiar with history, you wouldn't be posting here. You're not some historian--you're a google-scholar at best. You want me to believe you've been poring over primary sources in your half-assed assault on Christendom?

[KeenanParkerII]

[quote]You seem very sure about that... yes, the four gospels do overlap (including using the same wording - AIUI that's considered to be because the words were copied, not because they're independent corroborations of the same events); however, accepting that the canonical gospels were written by the apostles themselves is a leap of faith too far for me, I'm afraid. They didn't even use the same language.[/quote]

Of course not, they were transcribed by people who could read and write at the time. It doesn't matter how much the language changes as long as the definition remains the same, and comparison of the Bible with primary sources from the 1st century indicate that we've done a really fine job of maintaining that definition.

[quote]Given that Jesus is accorded a unique place in history, was in theory doing miracles witnessed by hundreds or even thousands of people, and yet no single physical record of any of these from the time exists - whether it was common in Jewish culture at the time isn't really relevant, because this chap was like nothing Jewish culture had ever seen before. Record keeping was pretty common in Roman culture, and none of them were writing about him, either.[/quote]

Of course nothing is written about him. He was considered, by Romans at least, no more than another mountain prophet living in a Roman colonial backwater. Those people who did have contact with him did write about him; I give you the Bible.. That, the distinct zealousness of Jesus' followers, and the fact that Christianity is the largest faith on Earth are testament to that message.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='philbo' date='13 January 2010 - 06:36 AM' timestamp='1263378977' post='2036057']
You seem very sure about that... yes, the four gospels do overlap (including using the same wording - AIUI that's considered to be because the words were copied, not because they're independent corroborations of the same events); however, accepting that the canonical gospels were written by the apostles themselves is a leap of faith too far for me, I'm afraid. They didn't even use the same language.
Without doubt that is *why* they were written. And very likely by people who believed the story themselves...
[/quote]

The gospel of John was written by John, or doesn't that count?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='philbo' date='13 January 2010 - 04:36 AM' timestamp='1263378977' post='2036057']



Staggering? Immediately?

Sorry, there must be whole reams of material I wasn't aware of - would you care to point me to some?


[/quote]
Sheer ignorance. The first generation after Jesus' death we have the earliest Christians going around writing letters to each other. Later on we even see Roman officials (Pliny the Younger) writing about this obscure, long dead, Roman criminal. Don't be dense; for a single private citizen from a Roman occupied territory, the amount of historical detail we have on Jesus is unparalleled.