What Divides Muslims And Christians

[Varg]

I knew that didn't look right.

I can do typing, me

Edited December 15, 2009 by Varg

[Winchester]

[quote name='Varg' date='15 December 2009 - 05:14 PM' timestamp='1260915266' post='2021280']
Who's descendants would become Commies.
[/quote]
I don't know. Whose?

[Varg]

WHO IS DESCENTENDTSSF

[Winchester]

R U OK?

[Varg]

NO! I made a grammatical error.

[Antigonos]

[quote name='Hassan' date='15 December 2009 - 12:18 PM' timestamp='1260868716' post='2020873']
At what time? The God of the Hebrew Bible is not a static being. He morphs and evolves throughout the text until eventually arriving at the grandiose monotheistic we think of now.[/quote]

The God of Abraham was incorporeal, omniscient and omnipotent. It was the [i]universality [/i]of God that developed from the purely tribal God of the Patriarchs.

[quote]I can't speak to your assertions about monotheism. Certainly the Zoroastrian monotheistic deity precedes the God of Judaism although it must be granted that he was not omnipotent. The Jews may have been the first to eventually configure God as you have described him, however it certainly did not pop out of a vacuum. It developed over centuries through extensive contact with other cultures.

[/quote]

Zoroastrianism is dualist, and came into being about 700 years after the Exodus from Egypt. More than being derived from surrounding cultures, Judaism's concept of God [i]rejected[/i] the concept of other civilizations' gods.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Winchester' date='14 December 2009 - 12:40 PM' timestamp='1260754810' post='2019977']
A wall would help.
[/quote]
I know I am a bit late with this but then my brain is only a part time one. I only have access on every alternate Friday.
But there are no walls or divisions in Paradise. Men make walls, God makes peace.

[img]http://www.tech-faq.com/emoticons/free-animated-emoticons/smiley_49.gif[/img]

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='19 December 2009 - 03:47 PM' timestamp='1261255641' post='2023166']
I know I am a bit late with this but then my brain is only a part time one. I only have access on every alternate Friday.
But there are no walls or divisions in Paradise. Men make walls, God makes peace.

[img]http://www.tech-faq.com/emoticons/free-animated-emoticons/smiley_49.gif[/img]
[/quote]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/heaven"]Source[/url]


Q: “My priest said there are different levels of heaven and hell. Where can I find Church documentation on this?”

A: The term "levels" of heaven and hell to describe the degrees of punishment or reward reflects the literary imagery of Dante Alighieri’s Divine Comedy more than the language of the Church. "Degrees" of perfection or punishment is the proper term. The degree of perfection of the beatific vision granted to the just is proportioned to each one’s merits.

The . . . Council of Florence (1439) declared the souls of the perfectly just clearly behold the Triune and One God as he is, but corresponding to the difference of their merits, the one more perfectly than the other. The Council of Trent defined that the justified person merits an increase of the heavenly glory by good works. (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 479)

Scriptural support may be found at: Matthew 16:27; 1 Corinthians 3:8; 2 Corinthians 9:6; 1 Corinthians 15:41. The punishment of the damned is proportioned to each one’s guilt.

The Union Councils of Lyons and of Florence declared that the souls of the damned are punished with unequal punishments . . . This is probably intended to assert not merely a specific difference in the punishment of original sin and of personal sins, but also a difference in the degree of punishment for personal sins [cf. Matt. 11:22; Luke 20:47]. . . . St. Augustine teaches "In their wretchedness the lot of some of the damned will be more tolerable than that of others. Justice demands that the punishment be commensurate with the guilt." (Ott, Fundamentals, 482)

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='20 December 2009 - 10:37 AM' timestamp='1261265822' post='2023221']
[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/heaven"]Source[/url]


Q: "My priest said there are different levels of heaven and hell. Where can I find Church documentation on this?"

A: The term "levels" of heaven and hell to describe the degrees of punishment or reward reflects the literary imagery of Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy more than the language of the Church. "Degrees" of perfection or punishment is the proper term. The degree of perfection of the beatific vision granted to the just is proportioned to each one's merits.

The . . . Council of Florence (1439) declared the souls of the perfectly just clearly behold the Triune and One God as he is, but corresponding to the difference of their merits, the one more perfectly than the other. The Council of Trent defined that the justified person merits an increase of the heavenly glory by good works. (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 479)

Scriptural support may be found at: Matthew 16:27; 1 Corinthians 3:8; 2 Corinthians 9:6; 1 Corinthians 15:41. The punishment of the damned is proportioned to each one's guilt.

The Union Councils of Lyons and of Florence declared that the souls of the damned are punished with unequal punishments . . . This is probably intended to assert not merely a specific difference in the punishment of original sin and of personal sins, but also a difference in the degree of punishment for personal sins [cf. Matt. 11:22; Luke 20:47]. . . . St. Augustine teaches "In their wretchedness the lot of some of the damned will be more tolerable than that of others. Justice demands that the punishment be commensurate with the guilt." (Ott, Fundamentals, 482)
[/quote]
This could all well be true but it does not necessarily mean that we will be separated. I as a human hold a higher position than my cat, but we are still in the same place. What if your loved ones deserve a different level than you and are separated from you? If yes! then you are not in paradise. God is all loving all forgiving. Example:- Prodigal son was shown just as much love and importance and honour as the obedient one. This was to demonstrate that Gods love and forgiveness, like him, is complete, unified, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omni benevolent. omni etc.

[Hassan]

[quote name='misereremi' date='15 December 2009 - 05:02 PM' timestamp='1260914551' post='2021264']
Welcome. I have been to your country twice but not to Srebrenica. In many places people I met were very scarred from the evils that took place in the 90's. Wasn't the divide about ethnicity/power not Christianity vs Islam? weren't Catholic Croats also persecuted and killed?

May all who suffered violent deaths there Rest In Peace and those who live who have witnessed them be consoled. God bless
[/quote]


For a number of historical reasons, many found in Serbia's resistance to Ottoman dominance, the Serbian Orthodox faith has been deeply enmeshed with Serbian nationalism. The conflict was not just about religion. Anyone who tells you that 'x' conflict was caused solely by 'y' is almost certainly either ignorant or lying to you. Christian persecution in Iraq by Sunni Muslims isn't just about religion either. Croats were attacked by Serbia. Croats did suffer from Serbian aggression, I don't know if most people would say that Serbs waged genocide against the Croats. Serbs also suffered. It was a clusterpluck of a situation. Like most geopolitical events it was messy, caste in shades of gray, and often difficult to understand at the time.

[Pomak]

[quote name='misereremi' date='16 December 2009 - 09:02 AM' timestamp='1260914551' post='2021264']
Welcome. I have been to your country twice but not to Srebrenica. In many places people I met were very scarred from the evils that took place in the 90's. Wasn't the divide about ethnicity/power not Christianity vs Islam? weren't Catholic Croats also persecuted and killed?

May all who suffered violent deaths there Rest In Peace and those who live who have witnessed them be consoled. God bless
[/quote]

[quote][indent] In Bratunac, Imam Mustafa Mujkanovic was tortured before thousands of Muslim women, children and old people at the town’s soccer stadium. Serb guards also ordered the cleric to cross himself. When he refused, ‘they beat him. They stuffed his mouth with sawdust, poured beer in his mouth, and then slit his throat.’[url="http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/the_churches_and_the_bosnian_war.htm#_edn2"] [2] [/url]

Routinely, Muslims held in concentration camps also told of being forced by their captors to sing Chetnik songs or to make the sign of the cross. Suggestions to Muslims that they convert to Serbian Orthodoxy could be viewed as yet another means to eliminate the Muslim presence.[url="http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/the_churches_and_the_bosnian_war.htm#_edn3"] [3] [/url]

Almost from the first, the Serb-led war was accompanied by an assault against the Muslim religious and cultural tradition, an assault whose impact has become clear as scholars examine the pattern of destruction. Muslim clergymen have been dispersed, imprisoned or killed, according to a variety of Muslim sources. National libraries and religious seminaries have been destroyed. And Bosnian scholars estimate that well over half of the mosques, historical monuments and libraries that comprise a six-century old religious and cultural heritage have been wiped out.[url="http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/the_churches_and_the_bosnian_war.htm#_edn4"][4][/url]

… the film was shown in which the notorious Scorpions were seen killing children, after having first been blessed by Father Gavrilo.[url="http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/the_churches_and_the_bosnian_war.htm#_edn5"][5][/url]

A Serbian Orthodox bishop, blacklisted by the EU for allegedly supporting war criminals, denied Thursday that he had sheltered top UN court fugitives Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic although he claimed the men were heroes. […] Bishop Filaret appeared in front of TV cameras with a skull in one hand and a machine-gun in the other during the 1992-95 war.[url="http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/the_churches_and_the_bosnian_war.htm#_edn6"][6][/url]

[Hague War Crimes Tribunal Chief Prosecutor] Carla del Ponte accused the Church of ‘involvement in politics and hiding those indicted of war crimes’.[url="http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/the_churches_and_the_bosnian_war.htm#_edn7"] [7] [/url]

The old Balkan pattern of clerically-inspired political violence has once again emerged in recent years: first come the priests [[i]popovi[/i]] and then the cannons [[i]topovi[/i]].[url="http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/the_churches_and_the_bosnian_war.htm#_edn8"] [8] [/url]

The symbols appeared in the three-fingered hand gestures representing the Christian trinity, in the images of sacred figures of Serbian religious mythology on their uniform insignia, in the songs they memorized and forced their victims to sing, on the priest’s ring they kissed before and after their acts of persecution, and in the formal religious ceremonies that marked the purification of a town of its Muslim population. The term ‘ethnic’ in the expression ‘ethnic cleansing’, then, is a euphemism for ‘religious’.[url="http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/the_churches_and_the_bosnian_war.htm#_edn9"][9][/url]

[/indent][/quote]

[quote]A succession of academic studies has meticulously documented the wartime activities of the Christian clergy, and particularly the bishops who proudly sat in the front row of the rebel Serbian ‘parliament’ whenever it assembled in its pirate capital of Pale. In the West, these studies have not usually been the work of Muslim scholars.[url="http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/the_churches_and_the_bosnian_war.htm#_edn10"] [10] [/url] One pioneering example has been the book of Michael Sells: [i]The Bridge Betrayed: religion and genocide in Bosnia [/i]. Sells is a Quaker, who is currently professor of religion at Haverford College in Pennsylvania. [url="http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/the_churches_and_the_bosnian_war.htm#_edn11"] [11] [/url] Here is a paragraph from the conclusion of his book:

[indent] The violence in Bosnia was a religious genocide in several senses: the people destroyed were chosen on the basis of their religious identity; those carrying out the killings acted with the blessing and support of Christian church leaders; the violence was grounded in a religious mythology that characterized the targeted people as [b]race traitors and the extermination of them as a sacred act.[/b][url="http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/the_churches_and_the_bosnian_war.htm#_edn12"] [12][/url]

[/indent][/quote]

[quote]The individual most regularly cited in connection with the ethnic cleansing process, and with religiously-based atrocities, Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic, has been widely feted as a hero in Orthodox church circles. ‘[b]Not a single important decision was made without the Church,’ as he boasted during the war[/b].[url="http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/the_churches_and_the_bosnian_war.htm#_edn15"] [15] [/url] At the height of the ethnic cleansing process, the Greek Orthodox synod chose to award him its highest honour, the Order of St Denys of Xante. The Greek bishops who conferred the honour upon him called him ‘[b]one of the most prominent sons of our Lord Jesus Christ.’[/b][url="http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/the_churches_and_the_bosnian_war.htm#_edn16"] [16][/url][/quote]

I will provide the sources if you wish but this is just the start. And I am not a Bosnaik, I was born 400 km east of Srebrenica, but something similar happened in my country in 88/89.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Pomak' date='21 December 2009 - 07:07 AM' timestamp='1261397254' post='2023998']
I will provide the sources if you wish but this is just the start. And I am not a Bosnaik, I was born 400 km east of Srebrenica, but something similar happened in my country in 88/89.
[/quote]


Are you a Croat?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Pomak' date='21 December 2009 - 07:07 AM' timestamp='1261397254' post='2023998']
I will provide the sources if you wish but this is just the start. And I am not a Bosnaik, I was born 400 km east of Srebrenica, but something similar happened in my country in 88/89.
[/quote]


As to the quotes, talk to Todd (Apo). He can explain to you the plight of the Serbs and their need to resist the 'infidel' to defend themselves from Dhimitude and the 1300 year enemy of Christianity. That the Ottoman Empire lost control of Serbia 200 years before hand, Serbia was the aggressor, and that the genocide was committed against Slavic not Turkic Muslims makes no difference apparently.

I wonder what would be said here if Bosnaik's committed those atrocities with that level of clerical support against Orthodox Serbs.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='19 December 2009 - 03:47 PM' timestamp='1261255641' post='2023166']
I know I am a bit late with this but then my brain is only a part time one. I only have access on every alternate Friday.
But there are no walls or divisions in Paradise. Men make walls, God makes peace.

[img]http://www.tech-faq.com/emoticons/free-animated-emoticons/smiley_49.gif[/img]
[/quote]
Did it hurt when they removed your sense of humor?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Winchester' date='22 December 2009 - 08:13 AM' timestamp='1261430027' post='2024120']
Did it hurt when they removed your sense of humor?
[/quote]

[img]http://www.tech-faq.com/emoticons/free-animated-emoticons/smiley_58.gif[/img][img]http://www.tech-faq.com/emoticons/free-animated-emoticons/smiley_54.gif[/img] We spell it Humour!!

Edited December 22, 2009 by Mark of the Cross