What Divides Muslims And Christians

[mortify]

[quote name='Antigonos' date='13 December 2009 - 04:46 AM' timestamp='1260697599' post='2019605']
I had always assumed that the basic theological difference between Moslems and Christians was that Moslems do not believe that Jesus was in any way God. There is [b]no[/b] God but Allah. Jesus was as just as human as any other prophet, inspired by God, but not God. But perhaps one of our Moslem members would expand on this?
[/quote]

But even so called Christians who reject the Trinity are forced to reject Muhammad's message because of his position on the crucifixion. It's for this reason I believe the issue over the crucifixion is of greater importance than the Trinity.

If Muslims recognize that Jesus was crucified it objectively proves their sacred text is in error, and since their sacred text is the main reason for their rejection of the Trinity, it would remove their main obstacle in accepting Jesus for who He really is.

[rkwright]

[quote name='mortify' date='13 December 2009 - 01:26 PM' timestamp='1260728789' post='2019696']
But even so called Christians who reject the Trinity are forced to reject Muhammad's message because of his position on the crucifixion. It's for this reason I believe the issue over the crucifixion is of greater importance than the Trinity.

If Muslims recognize that Jesus was crucified it objectively proves their sacred text is in error, and since their sacred text is the main reason for their rejection of the Trinity, it would remove their main obstacle in accepting Jesus for who He really is.
[/quote]

Edit: I agree with you.

Edited December 13, 2009 by rkwright

[mortify]

[quote name='rkwright' date='13 December 2009 - 01:28 PM' timestamp='1260728934' post='2019697']
Ok, so do it... how do you prove the crucifixion.
[/quote]

Muslims don't reject that a crucifixion occurred, they reject that Jesus was the one crucified. If you read the quote from Ibn Kathir's commentary (see above) you'll see that he records that one of Jesus' young disciples was made to look like him and then crucified in place of Christ, while the real Jesus was whisked away into heaven unharmed. The entire story is rather strange, and it's interesting that the verse in the Qur'an is addressed to Jews and not Christians. The Jews were boasting that they had killed Jesus and Muhammad responded that Allah deceived them into thinking they killed him, and so the Jews were the real dupes in the end. To me there are several reasons why Muhammad rejected the crucifixion. First of all, it's rather apparent that Muhammad's understanding of mainstream Christianity was vague, very little if anything in the Qur'an addresses what Christians actually believe, instead it addresses misunderstandings of Christianity (i.e. the Quran seems to suggest that Christians believe Jesus is the product of a sexual union between Allah and Mary, Subhannallah, we believe nothing of the sort!) And so because of Muhammad's ignorance he did not understand the significance of the crucifixion, in other words, he did not know that Jesus *had* to die and that this was all part of the Divine plan for salvation. Now if you remove the significance of the crucifixion all you're left with is a barbaric act, and how could Allah permit a prophet to suffer so horribly at the hands of their enemies? To Muhammad it would have been unthinkable. Lastly, it might be possible that some Gnostic elements were present in the Hijaaz, since only the Gnostic traditions come close to paralleling what's in the Qur'an, and it's rather interesting that you'll see Muslims rejecting the Gospels which were written decades after Jesus' resurrection, but they'll accept some Gnostic tale written 200 years later because it corresponds to what the Quran says! So it may very well be that a gnostic tradition of Jesus' crucifixion being an illusion reached Muhammad. The tragedy of it all is that there are a billion people who believe Jesus was never crucified, and they remain in the dark because they're taught reading the Bible is forbidden or at least discouraged... may God help these souls and bring them into the light of Truth.

Now as for proving that Jesus was crucified it would have to begin with some theology, the fact that the Crucifixion and Resurrection were part of the Divine plan, that Jesus was well aware of what awaited Him, and that therefore the crucifixion was not a barbaric act but a necessary means of our salvation. The other thing which I found very powerful, even as a Muslim, were the Old Testament prophecies of the suffering Messiah. Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, and the prophecy in Zechariah all further point to the fact that the Messiah *had* to suffer, and that this suffering would bring about our redemption. I would also go into history and demonstrate that Christians *always* believed in Jesus crucifixion and resurrection, and that there is no tradition of a substitution occurring on the cross. The closest you'll get is the Gnostic traditions, which as mentioned before were written centuries after Jesus, and it's important to remember why the Gnostics rejected the Crucifixion as genuine: The Gnostics didn't necessarily reject Jesus' Divinity, what they rejected was that Christ had a human body, since to them matter (and therefore flesh) was evil because it entrapped our immaterial spirit. So to the Gnostics the crucifixion could have only been an illusion that made Jesus *appear* to be crucified, which is rather similar to what the Qur'an says.

Overall a lot of prayer is required. God willing Muslims will come to recognize that it was Christ who was crucified, that His suffering was real, and that His blood really did run down the beam of the cross... and all this for their salvation!



Rejoice, the Lord is near!

Edited December 13, 2009 by mortify

[rkwright]

I think that as long as the Quran is held to be the word of God - the no matter what evidence you offer of the crucifixion, the response will always be the same: 1) God told us through the Quran that it was not Jesus but someone else and 2) All Christian accounts and tradition have been corrupted.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rkwright' date='13 December 2009 - 12:56 PM' timestamp='1260734212' post='2019725']
I think that as long as the Quran is held to be the word of God - the no matter what evidence you offer of the crucifixion, the response will always be the same: 1) God told us through the Quran that it was not Jesus but someone else and 2) All Christian accounts and tradition have been corrupted.
[/quote]
Yes, it is the same type of response that Mormons give in connection with the Book of Mormon.

[mortify]

[quote name='rkwright' date='13 December 2009 - 02:56 PM' timestamp='1260734212' post='2019725']
I think that as long as the Quran is held to be the word of God - the no matter what evidence you offer of the crucifixion, the response will always be the same: 1) God told us through the Quran that it was not Jesus but someone else and 2) All Christian accounts and tradition have been corrupted.
[/quote]

I agree that initially this is the case, but any serious seeker can't maintain a faith contrary to fact and reason, eventually they will lose faith or commit a sin against the Holy Spirit. The evidence for the crucifixion is overwhelming it's just that the majority of Muslims are in the dark about it.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='rkwright' date='13 December 2009 - 02:56 PM' timestamp='1260734212' post='2019725']
I think that as long as the Quran is held to be the word of God - the no matter what evidence you offer of the crucifixion, the response will always be the same: 1) God told us through the Quran that it was not Jesus but someone else and 2) All Christian accounts and tradition have been corrupted.
[/quote]

This sounds as though it makes dialog rather difficult, to the point that both sides are reduced to feeling that banging their head against the wall might be more productive. Hence the frustration felt by all members of the conversation of the last few days.

[Varg]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='13 December 2009 - 11:40 AM' timestamp='1260722401' post='2019664']
That is an older English spelling.
[/quote]
Is it? You learn summat everyday

[Winchester]

[quote]What Divides Muslims And Christians [/quote]
A wall would help.

[Pomak]

[quote name='mommas_boy' date='14 December 2009 - 07:27 AM' timestamp='1260736020' post='2019752']
This sounds as though it makes dialog rather difficult, to the point that both sides are reduced to feeling that banging their head against the wall might be more productive. Hence the frustration felt by all members of the conversation of the last few days.
[/quote]

If you are trying to convert people then yes. If you are trying to build a bridge of understanding so to speak so that each side knows what the other believes and doesn't believe then its not a problem.

This is coming from someone who is affiliated with an interfaith organization.

[Winchester]

I like this article. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0"]Theological Differences between Islam and Catholicism[/url]

[Antigonos]

[quote name='mortify' date='13 December 2009 - 10:40 PM' timestamp='1260733251' post='2019716']
Muslims don't reject that a crucifixion occurred, they reject that Jesus was the one crucified. [/quote]

It's not just the crucifixion that Islam co-opted or distorted. In true syncretistic magpie fashion, they maintain descent from Ishmael, and claim that Ishmael was the son Abraham was directed by God to sacrifice, not Isaac. The spot on what is now the Temple Mount where Abraham built his altar is sacred to Moslems not because God tested Abraham there, but because, on the night that Mohammad is supposed to have ascended to heaven, his horse Buraq flew from Mecca to Jerusalem, touched down with one hoof at that spot, and sprang to Heaven. That's why the mosque there is called the Dome of the Rock. It's just another attempt to gain legitimacy by co-opting the traditions of another religion.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Antigonos

[rkwright]

[quote name='Winchester' date='13 December 2009 - 11:40 PM' timestamp='1260765657' post='2020082']
I like this article. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0"]Theological Differences between Islam and Catholicism[/url]
[/quote]

O'Snap....

you got me

+1 sir +1...

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Pomak' date='13 December 2009 - 11:27 PM' timestamp='1260764855' post='2020075']
If you are trying to convert people then yes. If you are trying to build a bridge of understanding so to speak so that each side knows what the other believes and doesn't believe then its not a problem.

This is coming from someone who is affiliated with an interfaith organization.
[/quote]

Sorry. Not trying to convert anyone, though I can see how you could have thought that from my post. I'm trying to be explicit about what separates us, and in a way, trying to offer an olive branch to our new Muslim members by pointing out how incongruent some of our beliefs are with one another.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='mortify' date='13 December 2009 - 01:03 PM' timestamp='1260669821' post='2019460']
The image of our Lord crucified will probably discourage Muslims from posting
[/quote]

I doubt it. From what I have seen they are broad minded.