What Divides Muslims And Christians

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='18 January 2010 - 07:28 PM' timestamp='1263860931' post='2039906']
What I'm saying is that you can have and serve Jesus as your saviour and not know it. To be caught up in words is to think like a man. I only know English and this is not the language of the saviour. Will he condemn me because I do not use the language that he used? When one becomes a pure spirit one thinks like a pure spirit. I have been taught the Catholic faith and decided that it fits well with what I feel deep inside. Therefore I have not only decided to accept it but also believe from my feelings that it is God's desire for 'me.' Once again I will propose to you. Will an intelligent God of love and compassion condemn a person because they have not been given the opportunity to learn what he teaches or that they have been led into error by others or their faulty thinking or by doing the same by a different set of creeds. Surely God can only expect from you what he has made you capable of. In the past I have made lots of mistakes in my own interpretations but I made them with a loving heart and a desire to know God better and to share. My daughter refuses to be part of any organised religion because she sees so much corruption of it. But she as a nurse is a pure and caring spirit. Not long ago she said to me "I don't know what happened dad! I said God bless to one of my patients." I replied "So Jesus found a way from your heart to your brain!" What goes on in our souls is far more important than what goes on in our minds as long as we strive to remain pure in mind and to seek a better relationship with our God. Give yourself to God and he will lead you where he wills you to serve what he has intended you for. As far as learning scripture I'm sure that we will eventually come to know what he desires us to know.
[/quote]

In short, it is possible for a man to become a 'Christian' although he is unaware that he is a 'Christian'. Do you know that it is an Islamic ideology too? They openly said 'you can be an Islam without truly being a Muslim'.

Therefore, what is the sense of a man’s religiosity if he is not aware of his own religious-identity?

[reyb]

[quote name='philbo' date='18 January 2010 - 09:31 AM' timestamp='1263825095' post='2039620']
Correct.


[/quote]

Phibo,

Do you really know - who is this Jesus Christ that the writers are saying in the scriptures?

Now, if you are saying it is the historical Jesus then you are not entirely different from them who accepted the Holy Bible as the word of God. While they see this ‘historical Jesus’ in the letters of the scripture through the eyes of their faith, now and on the other hand, you are looking in this the same ‘historical Jesus’ in the words of the scripture using your reasoning and thus in disbelief in accepting the Holy Scripture as genuine because of your self-confessed complicating stories.

But who told you that the writers of the scripture are referring to this historical Jesus?

[reyb]

[quote name='Winchester' date='18 January 2010 - 07:43 PM' timestamp='1263861781' post='2039915']
We are not Gnostics--our Salvation does not depend on intellectualt apprehension.
[/quote]

....and it depends on 'faith' even without proper reasoning and clear understanding. If that is the case, 'deception is winning'.

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='18 January 2010 - 07:28 PM' timestamp='1263860931' post='2039906']
What I'm saying is that you can have and serve Jesus as your saviour and not know it. To be caught up in words is to think like a man. I only know English and this is not the language of the saviour. Will he condemn me because I do not use the language that he used? When one becomes a pure spirit one thinks like a pure spirit. I have been taught the Catholic faith and decided that it fits well with what I feel deep inside. Therefore I have not only decided to accept it but also believe from my feelings that it is God's desire for 'me.' Once again I will propose to you. Will an intelligent God of love and compassion condemn a person because they have not been given the opportunity to learn what he teaches or that they have been led into error by others or their faulty thinking or by doing the same by a different set of creeds. Surely God can only expect from you what he has made you capable of. In the past I have made lots of mistakes in my own interpretations but I made them with a loving heart and a desire to know God better and to share. My daughter refuses to be part of any organised religion because she sees so much corruption of it. But she as a nurse is a pure and caring spirit. Not long ago she said to me "I don't know what happened dad! I said God bless to one of my patients." I replied "So Jesus found a way from your heart to your brain!" What goes on in our souls is far more important than what goes on in our minds as long as we strive to remain pure in mind and to seek a better relationship with our God. Give yourself to God and he will lead you where he wills you to serve what he has intended you for. As far as learning scripture I'm sure that we will eventually come to know what he desires us to know.
[/quote]

Even if you are willing to give yourself in obeying God. Even if you are doing your best to be a better and morally upright person. Even if you are praying every hour and everyday for the rest of your life. Salvation is still too far from you because it comes only through Jesus Christ. The wrath of God was gone only through the coming of the real Jesus Christ who is not the historical one.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' date='19 January 2010 - 05:58 PM' timestamp='1263884282' post='2040072']
Even if you are willing to give yourself in obeying God. Even if you are doing your best to be a better and morally upright person. Even if you are praying every hour and everyday for the rest of your life. Salvation is still too far from you because it comes only through Jesus Christ. The wrath of God was gone only through the coming of the real Jesus Christ who is not the historical one.
[/quote]

I suppose my response is predictable. Explain to me the difference between your historical Jesus and the real Jesus. My salvation is still too far? God brought me to Catholicism because that's what he wants for me. I embrace it with sincerity because God is one and wants oneness. Having learnt the teachings of Catholicism, I would be sinning if I did otherwise, because I would be segregating myself from it and thus endorsing division which is the will of the evil one. Divide and conquer!

Edited January 19, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' date='12 January 2010 - 01:28 AM' timestamp='1263220128' post='2034664']
In many instances, I asked this question and I got the same result. This 'historical death and resurrection of Jesus Christ more or less 2000 years ago' is just a belief or an interpretation to the scripture. May question is this - who told you that it is a 'historical event'?
[/quote]

Who told you that you exist? You know you exist because otherwise you would not be data collecting, thinking and deciding and being aware of all that happens. All else cannot be proven 100% how do know that what you see and feel is not a dream, a matrix? Most of what we take in we give a degree of plausibility and decide to accept it unless something better comes along. Science accepted Newton until Einstein changed things. Science accepts Einstein until quantum mechanics and so forth. We have concluded that the Bible scriptures are correct. The difference being that in 2000 years nothing has changed our view, many have tried to debunk it and have failed. Whenever we pray, an invisible force that we call the Holy Spirit guides us in this truth.

[RandomProddy]

Let's put it another way.

Here's a copy of the Apostle's Creed. I've put in bold what Muslims could assent to.

[B]I believe in God[/B], the Father [B]almighty,
creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus[/B] Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit[B],
born of the Virgin Mary, [/B]
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

Edited January 20, 2010 by RandomProddy

[rayz]

[quote name='mortify' date='13 December 2009 - 12:27 AM' timestamp='1260660468' post='2019372']
Most would say it's the Trinity, I would say it's the fact that Christ was crucified[/quote]

Crucifixion is important only because Christians believe Jesus (PBUH) was divine. If Jesus (PBUH) was thought of as mere human, crucifixion wouldn't be the crux of the faith. So it does go back to trinity.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='rayz' date='20 January 2010 - 01:57 PM' timestamp='1264017441' post='2040945']
Crucifixion is important only because Christians believe Jesus (PBUH) was divine. If Jesus (PBUH) was thought of as mere human, crucifixion wouldn't be the crux of the faith. So it does go back to trinity.
[/quote]
Welcome back.

[rayz]

^ thanks. Will lurk for a while.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='rayz' date='21 January 2010 - 07:08 AM' timestamp='1264018120' post='2040953']
^ thanks. Will lurk for a while.
[/quote]

Peace be with you neighbour!

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='19 January 2010 - 04:13 AM' timestamp='1263892428' post='2040093']
I suppose my response is predictable. Explain to me the difference between your historical Jesus and the real Jesus. My salvation is still too far? God brought me to Catholicism because that's what he wants for me. I embrace it with sincerity because God is one and wants oneness. Having learnt the teachings of Catholicism, I would be sinning if I did otherwise, because I would be segregating myself from it and thus endorsing division which is the will of the evil one. Divide and conquer!
[/quote]

There is a saying – history is not a perfect science hence, nobody can be sure of 100% historicity of any particular event much more to say after 2000 years.

I have to agree with you what had happened cannot be narrated as 100% down to the very detail even if a historian is a true witness of a particular event but, I am not asking about details or some unimportant issues. I am questioning the very subject of this belief, and that is - the reality of the existence of historical Jesus since it was shown to me that there is no historical Jesus at all. Historical Jesus is just an interpretation to the scriptures and not the real One. The real One is in us.

Of course, you accepted the bible as an authentic word of God because you are a believer or a catholic or Christian or whatever reasons you may have in order to put your faith and trust to the letters of the Holy Bible. But it does not necessarily mean you really put your trust to the revelation of God in its truest sense since revelation is different from interpretation.

If this Jesus you accepted is the same Jesus the writers of the scriptures is saying, then you are one with them otherwise, it is your faith that works to believe that you are a true disciple by accepting and believing with all your heart that whatever you read and understand from the scripture was a revelation but in reality it is not a revelation but an interpretation. You must hear God yourself. You must see Christ yourself then you will understand why I said ‘only a witness can understand another witness’ and then you will realize the true meaning of revelation.

You are correct for almost 2000 years nothing has changed in your doctrine, belief, sacraments or whatever religious rites. And for 2000 years too your faith is still a mystery even to yourself - the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is a mystery, Your Church (Catholic Church) is a mysterious body; the Eucharist is a mystery and so on and so forth. Yes, for 2000 years, while every doctrine is hidden in mystery nonetheless your attitude is the same - Catholics claimed to be the only one guided by the Holy Spirit – the chosen people. Clearly, you are not one with Apostle Paul since he said ‘He revealed it unto us by the spirit he gave us’, He is saying, what is not yet heard or seen was revealed to them by the spirit of Christ.

Now, if Catholics are truly guided by the spirit of Christ since the beginning of Catholicism. If the Christ you are saying is the same Christ Apostle Paul is preaching. Why for almost 2000 years everything in your Church is still hidden in mystery? Do you think Apostle Paul is one with you? Do you think Apostle Paul is like a chosen people who know nothing about the mystery of God?

The reason why I said …. ‘Even if you are willing to give yourself in obeying God, even if you are doing your best to be a better and morally upright person, even if you are praying every hour and everyday for the rest of your life. Salvation is still too far from you....’…is because historical Jesus is a lie.

Wake Up Brothers.

Edited January 21, 2010 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='rayz' date='20 January 2010 - 02:57 PM' timestamp='1264017441' post='2040945']
Crucifixion is important only because Christians believe Jesus (PBUH) was divine. If Jesus (PBUH) was thought of as mere human, crucifixion wouldn't be the crux of the faith. So it does go back to trinity.
[/quote]

Are you a Muslim? Will you agree with me if I told you, Prophet Muhammad is a true Christian?