The State Of Israel

[JimR-OCDS]

Antigonos


[quote]
The West Bank was liberated from illegal seizure by Jordan, which captured the territory in 1948, in 1967.
[/quote]

This is somewhat misleading. During UN negotiations on whether a petitioned Jewish State would be
established, rather than a secular representative state, the Zionist negotiated an agreement with King Abdullah of Jordan. In that agreement, if the King backed the Jewish State proposal at the UN talks, Jordan would be allowed to expand into the West Bank. King Abdullah agreed and backed the Zionist proposal. However, once the war began in 1948 and Israeli troops were moving further into the West Bank, Jordan realized that the Zionist had deceived them, and so they fought back, taking part of the area there.

Jim

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Antigonos' date='15 December 2009 - 09:34 AM' timestamp='1260887651' post='2020908']
The West Bank was liberated from illegal seizure by Jordan, which captured the territory in 1948, in 1967. Judea and Samaria are the heartland of the Davidic Kingdom of Israel, and all the non-Jewish residents are still living there.[/quote]
I just want to say that, as a descendant of Frenchmen, I think that the land of Palestine rightfully belongs to me. Even though it is historically dubious that I'm actually descended from any of the Latin Franks who conquered the Levant 800 years ago, I still think that it belongs to ME and not to any one else, even if they are currently living there. I also think that we should kick out anyone currently living there right now, and use brutal force to set up an imperialist government.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Pomak]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='15 December 2009 - 05:12 AM' timestamp='1260814358' post='2020366']
Yes Pro-Islamic. Judging from the article Hussain posted and others like it from that site, it does seem very Pro-Islamic. I understand from past debates with Islamic Apologists that any news article that is critical of Islamic is propaganda, like you have just argued.

The fact remains Hamas did in fact enact a law that legalizes Crucifixion, and Christians are often persecuted in Hamas controlled territory.

The 'problem' with the State of Israel is that it is 'run by Jews.' The hate the middle east has for Jews is astounding, the Jew is portrayed as evil, and vile in very popular propaganda. Even before the creation of Israel Jews were in danger in Muslim nations, many Arab nations sided with the Axes Powers, and Hitler was very popular and his ideology was very popular in Islamic nations.
[/quote]

The irony of this coming from a Catholic is astonishing.
For the record the places where the political leaders sided with the Nazis the people and religious leaders generally opposed them. And Albania had more jews in the country after the war then there was before.

[quote]

Everything in that statement, apart from noting the origins of yourpeople [which indeed was part of the problem of the Balkans, thatvarious ethnic groups felt they had prior rights and that others[Moslems, as a matter of fact] were interlopers who settled thereduring the Ottoman period, is false, and can be shown to be so, if youwould take the time to do some proper research. I can recommend fullydocumented reading if you wish. I would appreciate it if you would stopregurgitating lies and propaganda. Remember that Jesus was a Jew, andif he were in Israel today, the "Palestinians" would be trying to killhim.[/quote]

1. My people are not Muslim.
2. My people lived in the Balkans back when there were like 5 countries in Europe(France, Italy, Byzantium, Spain and us)
3. If Jesus was alive he would ask, why is Judaism linked to an atheist ideology?

[quote]

Further, it might interest you to know that 20% of the population ofIsrael is Arab, fully enfranchised citizens* under the law. Most areMoslems. Arabic is the second official language of Israel, and there isa public school system that teaches in Arabic, and where the studentslearn Koran and Islam [Hebrew and English are second languages] Everymonth there are several hundred applications for Israeli citizenshipwhich are made by "Palestinians" who find PA/Hamas intolerable. Thatshows just how terribly Israelis treat "Palestinians".[/quote]

Oh thats right, those citizen who perpresent 20% of the population and get 2% of state funding and get 0 help from schemes that seek to help Jews to buy land. Tell me what about the beduin villages that are in Israel but are not recognized as citizens? Or rampant racism, amoungst (some)Jews in Israel about living next to the Arabs.

[quote]

In 1948 two things happened which go largely unnoticed: over 800,000Jews in Moslem countries had to flee for their lives with only theclothes on their backs to Israel, while the Arab countries whichsurround Israel, after declaring war on Israel, warned the Arabinhabitants that they would be punished as collaborators "when" theArab armies were victorious and pushed the Jews into the sea, and [i]because of that[/i],the Arabs fled their homes. So far from being evicted, Israeli armyofficers actually tried to urge residents of some towns to remain, butthe villagers didn't want to take a chance. This is documented**. NoArab country was willing to resettle the refugees who had been lockedinto the Gaza Strip by Egypt. Israel not only took in all the Jews whosurvived the Holocaust, they took in all those from Moslem countries,and still today is a place of refuge for Jews who are persecuted. Egyptwill not allow "Palestinians" to leave the Gaza Strip, and"Palestinians" in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan are kept in camps becausethey have more than once attempted to overthrow the host countrygovernments. King Hussain of Jordan survived over 40 assassinationattempts
[/quote]

LOL, the pushing the Jews into the see was not used back then It was done during the 1967 war. In 48 the arab leaders made some comments tha they gave 1 gun for every 100 men and that it would be sufficient. And what you totally misrepresent is that there was a war between the jews and arab in palestine afterwhich there were massacres. There are authentic reports that today are recognized by even zionists, the only difference is if massacres were the norm or if was just exceptions.

And considering that Israel killed 500 children in Gaza I do not think that you have any right to talk about the evils of Egypt. See the difference between you and me is that I recognize that politicians in the Middle East (with possible exception with some in Turkey) are all rotten. I hold no utopian views, but I insist on justice for the people.

[quote]The assertion that Israel uses "slave labor" is worse than absurd."Palestinians" fight for the chance to work for Israeli employers,because they have conditions and pay whichare so much better than withArab employers [when there is work at all]. Israel is in a no-winsituation: the charge is made that they exploit Arab labor, yet if theborder crossings are closed, Israel is accused of starving the Arabs bynot letting them work. You can't have it both ways. In addition, theEuropean Union gives the "Palestinians" 40 million Euros a month, whichdoes not go toward making Gaza livable, it goes for buying guns. Hamascares nothing for its constituents, and indeed, is beginning to look alot like the Taliban. Gazans are faking illness in order to crossIsrael [Gazans are treated in Israeli hospitals for serious illnesses,another evidence of Israeli "brutality", I suppose] and get to the PAcontrolled West Bank, which is less extreme. This also has beendocumented.[/quote]

Right this is where you bloc off medical aid and concrete? And you tell Egypt to stop even those essential items from coming in? Or this is where the IDF bombs the free trade zone that was set up by Turkey in palestine to inprove the economy?

[quote]
I should further note that only today an Israeli woman was stabbed by a"Palestinian", and a Kassam rocket was launched on the town of Shderotfrom the Gaza Strip.[/quote]

Oh your the zionist that still believes the lies of Palestine being "a land without a people"?

[quote]
*Not only do Israeli Arabs, both men and women, have the vote, theyhave several Members in the Israeli Parliament [from their own parties,although most Israeli Arabs choose to vote Labor]. Israeli Arabchildren, of both sexes, have compulsory education until age 16. Girlscannot be married before 17 which is the age of consent. Although thereligious authorities control divorce, instead of simply saying "Idivorce you" three times, a man must wait at least a month betweenrepetitions of the words, and they must be pronounced in an authorizedIslamic court. Illiteracy, especially among girls, is widespread incertain Arab countries, women do not have the vote in some countries,nor can they drive, and if divorced -- which can be done in the spaceof less than five minutes-- they not only have no recourse, they losecustody over their children.[/quote]
yet they can not marry anyone from the West bank or Gaza because Israel does not allow those people to come into Israel, not does it give them citizenship. Secondly if any arab goes to an "enemy state"(aka any muslim state) he can be thrown out of the paliment and most likely spend some times in Israeli jails. Speaking of Israeli jails do you want me to bring up the Israeli jails and torture facilities that were run in southern lebanon? I hear you guys gave a few lesson to the Lebanese on how to torture people properly.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Pomak' date='15 December 2009 - 09:56 PM' timestamp='1260932165' post='2021602']
The irony of this coming from a Catholic is astonishing.
For the record the places where the political leaders sided with the Nazis the people and religious leaders generally opposed them. And Albania had more jews in the country after the war then there was before.
[/quote]


[url="http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=10023"]FrontPage Magazine: Nazi Influence on the Middle East During WWII[/url]

Very exstenive article, so exstenive that it would be tooooo long to post.

[Antigonos]

If it is lists you want, [url="http://wapedia.mobi/en/List_of_Israeli_civilian_casualties_in_the_Second_Intifada"]here[/url] is a partial list of non-combatant Israeli casualties in the second intifada, with other links and full documentation as to source.

For lists of Qassam rocket attacks see:
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2001%E2%80%932006"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2001%E2%80%932006[/url] [partial list only]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2008"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2008[/url]

I am not really shocked, or even surprised, at the pervasive anti-Semitism on this forum, disguised as either anti-Israelism or Christian assumptions of superiority. Both the Church, and Islam, have long histories of both oppression and persecution of the Jews. I am saddened however. I joined because I have long lurked on Vocation Station and wanted to be able to post there, since I have an interest in spiritual matters, and ways of spiritual life.

So, I shall say goodbye here. The following is an article which appeared in the English language version of Haaretz, a liberal Israeli newspaper. I hope it will kindle a little soul searching.













Lieberman: New anti-Semitism directed at Israel



By Haaretz Service











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Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman warned Wednesday that "new anti-Semitism" was aimed at undermining Israel, as well as a hatred of the Jewish people.

Certain elements are "using anti-Semitism to incite hatred of Jews and to delegitimize Israel," Lieberman told a conference on anti-Semitism in Jerusalem.

The foreign minister said that new anti-Semitism had its roots in the 2001 anti-racism Durban conference, with its harsh condemnation of Israel at the height of a bloody conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.



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"There is no other independent nation in the world whose right to exist is constantly questioned the way Israel's is," Lieberman said.

"The people behind the [global] assault against Israel have crossed the line," he said. "They seek to destroy the Jewish state and take away the right of the Jewish people to define themselves."

Lieberman condemned the recent [url="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1135497.html"]arrest warrant issued in Britain[/url] against former foreign minister and current opposition leader Tzipi Livni.

The British court issued an arrest warrant against Livni for her role in orchestrating Israel's military offensive against Hamas in the Gaza Strip nearly a year ago. Lieberman remarked, half-joking, that soon Britain would issue arrest warrants against NATO forces over warfare in Afghanistan and in Iran. "It is in Britain's interest, not Israel's, to make a change," he said.

In his address, Lieberman also addressed the issue of Iran's controversial nuclear program, expressing concern over Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's calls for Israel's destruction, coupled with Tehran's nuclear program.

"It is frightening that just 60 years after the horrors of the Holocaust, today we see examples of anti-Semitism funded by Iran. [Iran] denies the Holocaust even happened, calls for the destruction of Israel and tries to obtain nuclear weapons. All these facts are reminiscent of what happened 70 years ago."

Addressing the conference, Diaspora Affairs and Public Diplomacy Minister Yuli Edelstein echoed Lieberman's comments that new anti-Semitism was directed at Israel.

"It is no longer the individual Jew or a Council of Jewish Elders who has led the world into war and economic collapse - it is Israel, the state of the Jews, who have brought war and tragedy to the globe," Edelstein said.

"Where Jews were once depicted as blood thirsty, stingy, morally corrupt baby killers, after the horrors of World War Two, these depictions of Jews are hard for many to stomach. So the attack has been reframed and reworded. There are no more Jews. Instead there are Israelis. Israeli soldiers kill babies. Israeli soldiers attack pregnant mothers. Israelis started wars in Iraq and Afghanistan," he continued.

"Israel as a nation was not put through a Holocaust. Israelis have not been expelled, converted, exiled and enslaved. So if you attack Israel, you are not picking on the weak. Anti-Semites have warped tiny Israel into Goliath. This way you can hate Israel, you can hate Israelis, and you are not called anti-Semitic," he said.

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the children of Israel were set apart because this was the chosen community through which would come the Saviour of the world, his birthday is celebrated